Death

Posted by Melanie - WA on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 6:44 p.m.

I've never posted on this board, but today after Bible Study Fellowship, I've been thinking a lot about death. Not in a morbid sense, really! We studied Ephesians 2 and in vs. 1-10 Paul talks about being dead in transgressions and sins, and then being made alive in Christ.

Could physical death be a type for spiritual death, just as marriage is a type for our union with Christ? Death is something most people fear. You can't do anything about it on your own. No one else can change it. It is final. Just so with spiritual death, only God who gives us the faith (vs.8) can make us alive. It is His free gift. Could anyone explore this with me?

This is probably a very basic question, so please forgive me and indulge me!

Thanks,
Melanie


too cool. very thought provoking. go on...(nt)

Posted by Donna C on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 8:04 p.m., in response to Death, posted by Melanie - WA on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 6:44 p.m.

nt = no text


Re: Death

Posted by Peggy on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 9:36 p.m., in response to Death, posted by Melanie - WA on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 6:44 p.m.

Melanie,

You said: "Could physical death be a type for spiritual death, just as marriage is a type for our union with Christ? Death is something most people fear. You can't do anything about it on your own. No one else can change it. It is final. Just so with spiritual death, only God who gives us the faith (vs.8) can make us alive. It is His free gift. Could anyone explore this with me? "

I think you are probably right. I've been reading some of Calvin's Institutes and he seems to relay some thoughts along this line...sorta, kinda. (grin). I'm not sure that we can universally equate the fear aspect, however, as many people are experiencing a great deal of pleasure in their sinful states and actually give little thought to their immortality, either spiritually or physically. But, this is an interesting idea to explore, nonetheless.

Peggy


Death...Woe...scratch what I said before!

Posted by Peggy on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 10:10 p.m., in response to Death, posted by Melanie - WA on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 6:44 p.m.

I should never have answered your question when I was as fatigued as I am! I realized I may not have understood your question properly...

If I do understand and my fatigue is not deceiving me...

...no, it cannot be simply a "type", because they are one in the same. Basic to the Christian faith is the intrinsic knowledge that spiritual life and physical life are inseparable. We die both physically and spiritually unless we are regenerated. We live both spiritually and physically if we are saved in Christ. Our faith is one that includes the promise of eternal life, in body and soul. The death of body and soul are not separable. Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection are the proof of the inseparability of the two.

On the other hand, understanding that our physical life and our spiritual rebirth are in the hands of God's creative and redemptive power...that we have no power in that regard, then you are correct.

I better be quiet and let someone else take this over until my brain has been renourished by some rest. Sorry if I've confused you terribly! I may not understand what you are driving at.

Peggy


Re: Death

Posted by Kevin Megill on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 11:11 p.m., in response to Re: Death, posted by Peggy on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 9:36 p.m.

Hi,

In an interesting discussion on death (both physical and spiritual), Peggy wrote:

"I'm not sure that we can universally equate the fear aspect, however, as many people are experiencing a great deal of pleasure in their sinful states and actually give little thought to their immortality, either spiritually or physically"

This certainly seems true, but I think there may be more to the story. For several years I've been mulling over these verses:

"Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and might deliver those who THROUGH FEAR OF DEATH were subject to slavery all their lives" -- Hebrews 2:14-15

I wasn't surprised to read that the devil used the power of death against people -- but this also says that he uses the fear of death to enslave them during their lifetimes. What does that mean?

In thinking it over, I think this makes a lot of sense. Most people spend their whole lives trying to escape their own mortality. In "We Are Driven", Christian psychologists Minirth and Meier argue that many people are

"...unconsciously trying to

suspend time -- 'If I can cram more into an hour, I'm stretching that hour.'

be invincible -- 'If I just jog enough, I won't age. My body will stay as it is.'

achieve immortality -- 'If I work hard enough or build a building or business with my name on it, I will live on after I die.'" [From the book jacket]

The common theme of all three is the fear of death.

Minirth and Meier believe that these motives underly many of our most destructive behavior patterns. I've come to agree more and more.

I think that if we as Christians could REALLY GRASP that we are going to live forever, it'd would have a profound effect on our lives.

Let me give a simple example. This year, I've been convicted that I waste too much time entertaining myself when I have things I should be doing. It's been hard to learn to discipline myself to use time more wisely without resenting it. Patterns of self-indulgence are tough to change.

I started wondering, why was this so hard for me? What was so precious to me about "free time"? Then I remembered the "end of summer vacation syndrome". I remember feeling a tremendous sense of freedom at the beginning of summer vacation -- as though I had all the time I wanted, to do whatever I wanted. But near the end of the summer, my feelings would change. I'd start to feel panicky that time was running out, that I had to somehow squeeze as much fun as possible into every moment before school started up again. (Do some of you know what I'm talking about?)

Like many Americans, I spend A LOT of time and energy working very hard at playing. I have a sense of urgency that I've got to "grab all the gusto" I can out of life while it's available.

The thing is, the entire approach is based on the fact that we've only got a limited time -- and for the Christian, that's just not true. We'll have an eternity of "free time" (whatever we'll be doing in heaven, I'm sure it'll be better than summer vacation ever was!)

I find that if I remember that I am headed for several million years of "free time", it's easier to let go of it now and I don't resent learning how to live for God every moment.

None of this means it's wrong to relax now and then -- as I write this, I'm listening to March Madness on my computer :-) [Go Big 10!]

In Christ,
Kevin Megill


But what about ....

Posted by Melanie - WA on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 9:25 a.m., in response to Death...Woe...scratch what I said before!, posted by Peggy on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 10:10 p.m.

I have a bunch of thoughts and questions and I don't really know haow to organize them, so I hope you can follow.

If our spiritual life and our physical life are inseparable, then why do we have physical death? Couldn't we just be raptured up to heaven sometime as believers before we actually have to die? Aren't I spiritually reborn when I receive the Holy Spirit? That must be, by definition, before I physically die.

Why did God say " The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen. 3:22? Doesn't separation from life typify separation from God?

At what point was Christ's separation from God when he paid the price for our sins? Was it before he died or while he was dead? Did Christ die a spiritual death first and then a physical death after that?

Isn't it Christ's physical death that allows us to come into God's presence having paid the price for our sins? And isn't it Christ's resurrection that proves his power over physical death?

Is it Christ's ascension that proves his power over spiritual death? He could have just died again like Lazarus did.

By believing in Christ are we eating of the fruit of the Tree of Life? Isn't He the one who allows us to live forever?

This is good stuff to meditate on before Easter. Thank you for joining me.

Blessings,
Melanie


Jesus Christ NEVER died spiritually!

Posted by Peggy on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 12:38 p.m., in response to But what about ...., posted by Melanie - WA on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 9:25 a.m.

Hi,

You asked: "If our spiritual life and our physical life are inseparable, then
why do we have physical death?"

Physical and spiritual death have come by our own hand, because of our transgression in sin.
This was the first redemptive act that God bestowed upon us.  He limited our access to the tree of life so that we would not have to live eternally separated from Him.

Gen 3:21  The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Gen 3:23  So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

You asked: "Couldn't we just be raptured up to
heaven sometime as believers before we actually have to die?"

How could we be taken up to heaven with Him when we'd thrown away our chance to be forever with Him?  He had to first redeem us before we could be reconciled with Him.

You asked: "Aren't I spiritually reborn when I receive the Holy Spirit?"

Yes, indeed, upon your confession of Christ as Lord and Savior, you are saved from the grip of both physical death and spiritual death.

You asked : "Why did God say " The man has now become like one of us, knowing good
and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also
from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Gen. 3:22? Doesn't
separation from life typify separation from God?"

I think I explained that above...but remember *we* are separated from Him, by our own choosing...*God* on the other hand never separated Himself from us!  He is with us! He came to us in the form of a man to impress this upon us and to suffer for our sins so that we might be forgiven and receive eternal life.

You said: "At what point was Christ's separation from God when he paid the price
for our sins? Was it before he died or while he was dead? Did Christ
die a spiritual death first and then a physical death after that?"

Christ absolutely NEVER died spiritually. 

You asked: "Isn't it Christ's physical death that allows us to come into God's
presence having paid the price for our sins? And isn't it Christ's
resurrection that proves his power over physical death?"

Absolutely...AMEN!!  Christ's PHYSICAL death only!!  But, He triumphed over His physical death...as witnessed in His bodily resurrection.

You asked: "Is it Christ's ascension that proves his power over spiritual death?
He could have just died again like Lazarus did."

It was proof that He did NOT succumb to a spiritual death and it was His promise to us that, in Him, neither are we held in death's grip, physically or spiritually. We are no longer at threat of being eternally separated from the Father.

No, He could NOT have died again, like Lazarus, because He is eternal.

You asked: "By believing in Christ are we eating of the fruit of the Tree of Life?"

Yes, we have been admitted to the Kingdom to eat of the tree of life so that we may live eternally with God.

You said: "This is good stuff to meditate on before Easter. Thank you for joining
me."

I am very grateful that you have posed these questions for us all so as to reaffirm God's eternal sovereignty and His eternal promises to His children!

Love,
Peggy


Re: But what about ....

Posted by Peggy on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 12:48 p.m., in response to But what about ...., posted by Melanie - WA on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 9:25 a.m.

I just found one other question that you'd posed that I did not answer...

You asked: "Doesn't separation from life typify separation from God?"

Death...physically and spiritually do not "typify" separation...they are the real thing! (grin)

Love,
Peggy


Re: But what about ....

Posted by Kevin Megill on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 1:23 p.m., in response to But what about ...., posted by Melanie - WA on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 9:25 a.m.

Dear Melanie,

In the garden when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and begin the sin process that all flesh (apart from the incarnation) was doomed to follow in, death of this physical world was set in place to continue until the entire passing away of all temporal things.

There have been those who never tasted death physically at all (Enoch and Ezekiel) and those who have tasted it twice (Lazarus and Peter's mother-in-law and Jarius's daughter as well as any others, both in old and new testaments, who were raised only to die again later on). God could very well allow all believers to not partake of the corruption in this world (resulting from sin) whose final end is death, but except for extraordinary circumstances, physical death even for believers accomplishes His will and with all things brings Glory to His name.

I have known of many who have surrendered their lives to Christ through the death of a dear saint. For the believer death is no longer a curse or something to fear, but it the first step toward our real existance alive forever with the God of the Universe!!

When Satan told Eve that she would not die if she ate of the tree, he was deceiving her into thinking only of the physical death, and that did not happen immediately, so she deceived herself into thinking that God was not telling the truth! In fact, she did die spiritually at that point! From that point on, each human is physically born to temporal life but spiritual death (so we live and are dead at the same time). But also, at that point in the garden, God set into motion the plans for redemption! (see the curse between the seed of Eve and the seed of the serpent) Once that redemption was fulfilled in Christ, through His death and resurrection, humans were offered the opportunity to escape from the eternal spiritual death which we deserved. BUT God did not choose to work against the curse on the temporal world and eliminate physical death for His children. WHY?? We can make many speculations, but this is part of the sovereignty of God and we can trust Him to deliver (glorify) us at the point of our physical death.

Don't know if this makes things clear or muddy! :-)

In His Joy and Grace,
Kate Megill


Re: Death

Posted by Peggy on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 2:03 p.m., in response to Re: Death, posted by Kevin Megill on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 11:11 p.m.

Kevin,

"Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and might deliver those who THROUGH FEAR OF DEATH were subject to slavery all their lives" -- Hebrews 2:14-15"

Hmmm...very interesting! I'll have to look at that more closely. Thanks!

Peggy


Are you sure?

Posted by Melanie - WA on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 3:19 p.m., in response to Jesus Christ NEVER died spiritually!, posted by Peggy on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 12:38 p.m.

Isn't spiritual death actually separation from God? Wasn't Christ separated from God on the cross? What would have been Christ's sacrifice if it wasn't His separation from God?

Thanks for discussing this with me!
Blessings,
Melanie


Re:that is neat Kate!!

Posted by monica on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 7:03 p.m., in response to Re: Death, posted by Kevin Megill on Thursday, 12 March 1998, at 11:11 p.m.

Kate, I guess that it could be summed up (for the simple{me}) One day at a time,all time for Him.
Is that the message? I must be having an ADD day.
monica


Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually

Posted by Peggy on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 8:46 p.m., in response to Are you sure?, posted by Melanie - WA on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 3:19 p.m.

Melanie,

You asked: "Isn't spiritual death actually separation from God? Wasn't Christ separated from God on the cross?"

Yes, spiritual and physical death speak of *man's* separation from God.

What leads you to believe that Christ was separated from God when He was on the cross?

Before we draw any conclusions as to what we think may or may not have happened on the cross and during the three days in the tomb, we must establish some basic facts in our minds that are uncompromising...

The basic tenets of the Trinity
The divinity of Christ

Upon the basis of those certain facts we must draw our conclusions...otherwise we compromise the very basis of our faith in One God in three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...all equally divine, equally eternal, equally immutable (unchanging), and equally sovereign. Christ is one of those three Persons. Any answer we give *must*, *must* include those facts.

With those basic fundamental facts what is the only answer we can give to whether or not Christ was separated from the Father? NO! He could not be divided...He was/is/will always be ONE with the Father, forever!.

So if it was not that He was separated from the Father, what can I say *did* happen during that divine/human experience of Christ's on the cross? I don't really know for sure...but, I could and have devised some conclusions that do not compromise the Trinity or Christ's divinity. Whether they are correct, I can't say for sure. We must be humble enough to submit to the fact that we do not know everything about God and His work...that presumption is what got us in trouble in the first place!! (grin)

You asked: "What would have been Christ's sacrifice if it wasn't His separation from God?"

Very basically, it is that He chose *not* to be separated from *us*! Do you think coming into our midst was any peice of cake? LOL I think it was more like a little peice of hell.

Look at it this way...God is up in heaven...all comfy cozy, all powerful looking down on the destruction that man incurred on His lovely creative efforts. He could very well have sat up on His throne and ignored it all and kept Himself in His lofty comfortable condition...and not risk getting His hands tainted by touching our destruction.

The ironic thing is that His hands would have been tainted had He *not* come into our nasty mess. It would have been an admission that his creative work was not good enough for Him to continue to be involved in it...and He had said "it was good" when His work was finished. By His separation, it would have been an admission that His creative work was not good.

But continuing to do His creative work would now involve redeeming us from our own wayward destruction, because He knew that we couldn't do it on our own...He knew that if we were left alone in our deception that we would be forever lost!

So, He continues His work of inconceivable love and justice, by entering into this world and subjecting Himself to the slings and arrows of our suffering. Did He deserve to have to suffer along with us? Was His suffering something of His own making? NO! It was the product of our deceived works. But, He continued to subject Himself to the same temptations, the same hunger and thirst, the same temporal and corporeal trials that the rest of face. And He triumphed...He triumphed over Satan's trials...He remained ever steadfast in His perfect love and justice...He never separated Himself from His eternal good substance and quality. He did separate Himself for a time from that which was temporal and corporeal through His physical death...but He triumphed over even that as a promise to us that we too could triumph over death, in and through Him.

He lived a life of suffering that He did not need to do...He submitted Himself to a painful physical death with all the same trepidation and fear that we experience, but He did it in perfect submission to the Father's will...And He rose from that physical death as testimony to His eternal and sovereign status...with the invitation that we might, too, join Him.

Pretty cool, eh? (grin)

Love,
Peggy


Matt.27:45-46

Posted by Melanie - WA on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 11:27 p.m., in response to Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Peggy on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 8:46 p.m.

Dear Peggy,

What about Matt. 27:45-46? "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Wasn't Christ spiritually separated from God then?

In John 19:30 after Jesus has the drink He said "It is finished." That was before his physical death. Isn't it that the price had been paid by his separation from God?

I agree that Christ was fully divine and is part of the Trinity, but I'm not sure we can truly resolve this without agreeing that only God knows!

Thanks Peggy!

Melanie


Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually

Posted by Kevin Megill on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 11:44 p.m., in response to Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Peggy on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 8:46 p.m.

I'm not sure I completely follow. You seem to be equating Jesus' physical nature with his humanity and his spiritual nature with his divinity.

I'm not sure that we can really separate these things at all, but if I tried, I'd claim that his human nature had both physical and spiritual aspects, and that he could well have suffered both physical and spiritual death in his humanity while being preserved from it in his divinity.

Am I missing the point?

Kevin Megill


Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually

Posted by Peggy on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 8:25 a.m., in response to Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Kevin Megill on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 11:44 p.m.

Kevin,

You said: "I'd claim that his human nature had both physical and
spiritual aspects, and that he could well have suffered both physical
and spiritual death in his humanity while being preserved from it
in his divinity...Am I missing the point?"

I think the point is fundamental Trinitarian doctrine that states that Christ is fully divine...incapable of spiritual death that is brought through sin. He can be fully divine only in His spiritual aspects.  God is Spirit.  Jesus was conceived  by the Holy Spirit.  He was God with flesh and blood, not God with a little bit of God's Spirit and a little bit of human Spirit.  God is eternal and infinite...He is immutable...incapable of change.  If we say that Christ died, we are saying that God died.  What scriptural evidence would you have to support that God died?

Peggy


Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually

Posted by Lisa TX on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 10:24 a.m., in response to Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Peggy on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 8:25 a.m.

Peggy,

My brain hurts! =D

I think the whole point of the Gospel IS that Jesus was separated from God at His death. At the moment of death, He took on, in a spiritual sense, all of the sins of mankind, and a holy God (the Father) could not bear to look upon Him (Jesus). That is why Jesus said what He did, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Jesus didn't dump His deity at that point. The Trinity, to me, means, "three *separate* Persons in One." All of the members of the Trinity are God -- they don't have to be connected in order to be so! Jesus could be separated from God the Father and still be God the Son.

In Jesus,
Lisa TX


Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually

Posted by Lucia on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 12:06 p.m., in response to Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Lisa TX on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 10:24 a.m.

Lisa

Your brain hurts?????? Mine aches from all this. LOL!

Lucia


Re: The dual nature of Christ -- warning: could make your head swim!

Posted by Kevin Megill on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 12:22 p.m., in response to Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Peggy on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 8:25 a.m.

Peggy,

I am still not sure ...

You write:

"I think the point is fundamental Trinitarian doctrine that states that Christ is fully divine...incapable of spiritual death that is brought through sin. He can be fully divine only in His spiritual aspects. God is Spirit. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was God with flesh and blood, not God with a little bit of God's Spirit and a little bit of human Spirit."

I'm still not absolutely sure -- are you saying that the spiritual part of Jesus was divine and the physical part human? If so, I disagree.

"If we say that Christ died, we are saying that God died. What scriptural evidence would you have to support that God died?"

And here, are you arguing that, technically speaking, Christ did not even die physically? If so, I still disagree.

---

I am getting in way over my head here, but I pulled out "The Creeds of Christendom" by Philip Schaff and looked up the information about the Christological controversy of the 5th century, when the doctrines of the dual nature of Christ were worked out. (Key terms: Chalcedonian and Athanasian creeds; Nestorian, Monophysite, and Appollinarian heresies.)

The creed of Chalcedon said Christ is a single person with two inseparable natures, one human and one divine. Schaff paraphrases it like this: "The whole work of Christ is to be attributed to his person, and not to one or the other nature exclusively. The person is the acting subject, the nature the organ or medium. It is the one divine-human person of Christ that ... suffered through the sensorium of his human nature. The superhuman effect and infinite merit of the Redeemer's work must be ascribed to his person because of his divinity; while it is his humanity alone that made him capable of, and liable to, toil, temptation, suffering, and death ..." (The Creeds of Christendom, p 32).

I think this is different than what you are saying -- isn't it?

To be fair, Schaff goes on to mention that modern-day Christendom has not always agreed with all of the Chalcedonian creed.

If anyone has more extensive or accurate information about this stuff, I'd be interested.

---

The more I think about the creed's stand, the more I agree. Christ is one divine-human person with two inseparable natures, one human one divine. The human nature suffered death, the divine nature didn't -- but the one person of Christ suffered death through the human nature while experiencing life through the divine nature.

This means Christ suffered HUMAN death but not DIVINE death -- which is very different from saying he suffered PHYSICAL death but not SPIRITUAL death. To the extent that humans die(d) spiritually, to that extent Christ died spiritually.

In Christ,
Kevin Megill


We're POSITIVE, too! Jesus did NOT die spiritually!

Posted by William and Tamara Eaton on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 12:29 p.m., in response to Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Peggy on Friday, 13 March 1998, at 8:46 p.m.

Amen, Peggy, we're sure that Jesus did NOT die spiritually, too!

People who believe the *heresy* that Jesus died spiritually are not defending a "scriptural doctrine", for the Word of God NEVER teaches this doctrine. You won't find a single statement anywhere in scripture that states Jesus died spiritually.

If one is defending the supposed notion that Jesus died spiritually, in reality, they are defending a man's premise about sin and the atonement.

We've also posted a new message called "Nothing But the Blood of Jesus" to refute this heresy.

William and Tamara


Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually

Posted by Peggy on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 1:02 p.m., in response to Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Lisa TX on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 10:24 a.m.

Lisa,

You said: "The Trinity, to me, means, "three *separate* Persons in One."

This is not what trinitarian doctrine speaks of...it speaks of "three *in* ONE"..."ONE *in* three. It speaks of the sameness/differences in their distinctions...not their *separatedness* from one another as though they could be pulled apart.

Those who formulated the trinitarian doctrine did not claim to know fully or express perfectly the mystery of the Trinity...it was formulated to refute what they knew the trinitarian God was *not*...

They knew God is not three separated entities each containing a quantity of divine Spirit separate from one another. This would imply that He is three separate dieties!

You said: "I think the whole point of the Gospel IS that Jesus was separated from God at His death."

To say that Jesus was separated from God...is to say, at the very least, a *part* of God ceased to exist, or at the very worst, *all* of God ceased to exist...or that one of three dieties ceased to exist. Because God is the source of ALL life...to be separated from Him means sure death.

You said: "At the moment of death, He took on, in a spiritual sense, all of the sins of mankind, and a holy God (the Father) could not bear to look upon Him (Jesus)"

This to me makes no sense. Here you speak of a God who is so distant, so set apart from His creation that He cannot risk involvement in order to keep from being tainted by it. This seems antithetical to the God that I know in Jesus Christ, who came right into the midst of our wickedness to look sin sqaurely in the face, was not tainted by it, convicted the sin and triumphed over it. All this so that we might do the same through Him, and in Him!!

God's holiness lies not in His separation from His human creation, but in the quality of His perfect and sovereign nature that cannot be tainted or changed by the evil contained and perpetrated by His mutinous creation. It is *we* who are transformed by *Him*...not *He* that is transformed by *us*.

Love,
Peggy


Re: The dual nature of Christ -- warning: could make your head swim!

Posted by Peggy on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 1:24 p.m., in response to Re: The dual nature of Christ -- warning: could make your head swim!, posted by Kevin Megill on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 12:22 p.m.

Kevin,

You said: "If we say that Christ died, we are saying that God died. What scriptural
evidence would you have to support that God died?"

And here, are you arguing that, technically speaking, Christ did not
even die physically? If so, I still disagree."

To take a little part of your post...because I don't have time right at the moment to really fully digest what you were saying...

NO...I am not arguing technically or otherwise that Christ did not die a physical death! Indeed He *did* die a physical death...and it is through that suffering sacrifice that we are saved.

I am not in any way refuting the human nature taken on by Jesus...to deny that is to deny other basic parts of the trinitarian doctrine.

I'll try to get back to this later.

Peggy


Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually

Posted by Lisa TX on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 1:40 p.m., in response to Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Peggy on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 1:02 p.m.

Hi Peggy,

Let me clarify. I DO NOT mean to say that there are THREE SEPARATE GODS, just that there are three separate identities of the same, one God. "I and the Father are one," & Scriptures like that.... (I admit this doctrine is a mystery.)

So, what do you think Jesus meant when He said, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"?

Love,
Lisa TX


Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually

Posted by Peggy on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 1:48 p.m., in response to Re: Yes, I am *sure*...Christ did not die spiritually, posted by Lisa TX on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 1:40 p.m.

Lisa,

I think it might be best if you read William and Tamara's post...they explain thoroughly what the problems are inherent in accepting a teaching of atonement that includes Jesus' spiritual death.

I have exhausted all arguments that I can offer on this topic and I think William and Tamara give a very comprehensive argument that should be seriously considered.

Out of our ignorance we can conclude some things that hold real danger in distorting the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's why this issue is so important to me. In my opinion, this is NOT one of those grey areas open to individual interpretation.

Christ did not die a spiritual death!

Love,
Peggy


Re: We're POSITIVE, too! Jesus did NOT die spiritually!

Posted by Lisa TX on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 1:49 p.m., in response to We're POSITIVE, too! Jesus did NOT die spiritually!, posted by William and Tamara Eaton on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 12:29 p.m.

To define my terms (maybe this will help clear things up!):

Spiritual death = separation from God

Does that help y'all (including you, Peggy) see where I'm coming from?

In Jesus,
Lisa TX


Re: We're POSITIVE, too! Jesus did NOT die spiritually!

Posted by Peggy on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 2:14 p.m., in response to Re: We're POSITIVE, too! Jesus did NOT die spiritually!, posted by Lisa TX on Saturday, 14 March 1998, at 1:49 p.m.

Yes Lisa that clearly defines your terms...

...but, God's terms are...CHRIST DID NOT DIE A SPIRITUAL DEATH! CHRIST WAS NOT SEPARATED FROM THE FATHER!

I guess I am forced to say things as strongly as William...

The notion that Christ died a spiritual death is a heresy. It is not a new one, but has been repeated throughout history. I think it is one that we can easily fall into because of the intricacies of all the doctrines it denies and because of the subtle interpretations we impart to a couple of very short passages in scripture.

I repeat...Christ did not die a spiritual death!
You may not understand it or believe that this is the truth...but, it doesn't make it any less the truth.

Love,
Peggy