Welcome to CHFWeb.com  The Christian Homeschool Fellowship on the WEB
Quick Start
[Support our Advertisers!] Getting Started on the Homeschooling BUS!
SheLaughed.com
CHFWeb Forum Area Articles of Significance on CHFWeb.com CHFWeb Mall --For all your resource needs! Library Area on CHFWeb.com Advertise Contact Us
CHFWeb Help!
[Support our Advertisers!] Contributions from our Members:   Our "Perfect"Homeschool! ... Recently someone asked me what I would like to change about our homeschool. I thought about it for several minutes, but I couldn't think of anything I wanted to change. For the past few years, we've reached a homeschooling plan and style that suits our family just perfectly! [Support our Advertisers!]
Home » CHFWeb Forum » BibleIssues » Glory over me
Glory over me [message #783927] Thu, 01 August 2013 11:15 Go to next message
Larry686  is currently offline Larry686
Messages: 15
Registered: July 2013
Location: SE Kentucky
Junior Member
And Moses said unto Pharaoh, Glory over me: when shall I intreat for thee, and for thy servants, and for thy people, to destroy the frogs from thee and thy houses, that they may remain in the river only? And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God. Exodus 8:9-10


I noticed that, to me, Ex 8:9-10 seems to be saying that Moses was saying to Pharaoh, "you be the boss, whatever you say, concerning this matter, I will do".

I think that there is an aspect, like a facet on a diamond, to the meaning of the word "glory", that, implies obedience/submission, as well as adoration. It's seems so elementary, so simple... give God glory in everything you do (see my tag) so simple that you wouldn't think it would have much consequence but it changed everything!


I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. John 17:4


That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:27


For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Re: Glory over me [message #786081 is a reply to message #783927 ] Mon, 02 September 2013 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
Messages: 9599
Registered: April 2005
Location: Small Town New Hampshire
Senior Member
That is an interesting post, Larry.


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Glory over me [message #786084 is a reply to message #783927 ] Tue, 03 September 2013 01:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa T.  is currently offline Lisa T.
Messages: 5576
Registered: April 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Senior Member
When I hear the word "glory", I think of light. Artists use the image of light when they wish to depict the glory of God--in the form of haloes, for example.

We are asked to live our lives in the light in order to reflect the glory of God:

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven. Matt 5:16

Check LLTGG for a little more on the theme of light...


Lisa T.
Re: Glory over me [message #786132 is a reply to message #786081 ] Tue, 03 September 2013 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry686  is currently offline Larry686
Messages: 15
Registered: July 2013
Location: SE Kentucky
Junior Member
Thank you Sherry! LisaT, that is a great point!

This simple truth has captivated me for years and guided me when I didn't know what to do.


For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Re: Glory over me [message #786133 is a reply to message #783927 ] Tue, 03 September 2013 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bolt.  is currently offline bolt.
Messages: 778
Registered: July 2010
Location: Canada
Senior Member
The Hebrew word here (Ex 8:9) translated “glory” is “pa’ar” – and it is indeed contextually interpreted to mean “glorify yourself over me” = you give the orders, you have the honour to make this decision.

Through the OT, pa’ar is used both positively (referring to legitimate glory) and negatively (referring to pride and self-aggrandizement) which is probably why it was chosen here. Pharoah is being honoured, but the Bible is not laying out whether that honour is legitimate (God-approved) or simply a response to the political reality of the moment (power and self-aggrandizement).

Of all the times that the OT refers to “glory” only 13 of those instances are the “pa’ar kind of glory”. That means that even though we understand something significant about how pa’ar talks about glory, we can’t necessarily carry over that understanding to passages that are not using the word pa’ar.

It is certainly with great caution that we would even approach the idea of extending what we have learned from pa’ar outside of the Hebrew language and into the Greek language for, as you make an example, John 17:4, which is using the Greek word “doxa”. (The Eph passage also uses doxa.)

To check whether or not there is any moderate or strong connection between a Hebrew word (in the OT) and a Greek word (in the NT) what you would do is check, “When Greek-speaking Jews were translating the Septuagint, which Greek word did they choose to represent the Hebrew word found in their Scriptures?”

In this case (just to provide an example) we find that the Septuagent translators at that time chose the Greek “tasso” (arrange, put in order, appoint) to render this incidence “pa’ar”. Their literal translation was something like “make for yourself an appointment/order -- to me” which adequately carries the invitation for Pharaoh to choose the time for the relief of the plague, to tell Moses the moment of his choice.

Because the Septuagint translators had the policy of choosing the nearest literal translation that would make any sense – we assume that they would have used “doxa” as the literal equivalent if there was any way to do so. Since they did not, then we have learned that the Hebrew word pa’ar did not have enough overlap with the Greek word doxa for them – which means that we cannot justly apply things we learn from “pa’ar passages” to our understanding of “doxa passages".

(Unless, of course, there is a strong showing of a pa’ar-doxa connection in the other 12 OT incidents of pa’ar… we’d have to check how they are rendered in the Septuagint.)
Good thoughts though. Your analysis of the original passage was right on the money…! (It’s just that extending those ideas has limits.)

Oh, as a random comment, John’s use of doxa almost always carries strong tones of revelation -- truths that are being revealed are showing us God’s glory, the glory is in the revelation, as things become ‘visible’. Doxa in John’s writings is truly fascinating rich and deep, well worth anyone’s attention.

[Updated on: Tue, 03 September 2013 13:05]

Re: Glory over me [message #786134 is a reply to message #786133 ] Tue, 03 September 2013 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa T.  is currently offline Lisa T.
Messages: 5576
Registered: April 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Senior Member
That's really interesting! I'm clearly not a Scripture scholar, I'm pretty amateur...so I love to find out more! Thank you!


Lisa T.
Re: Glory over me [message #786147 is a reply to message #786133 ] Tue, 03 September 2013 19:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry686  is currently offline Larry686
Messages: 15
Registered: July 2013
Location: SE Kentucky
Junior Member
That was a lot of work Bolt, Thank you for the time you spent.

At one time in my life, I was a student of Hebrew and Greek and spent endless hours debating things like the Septuagint vs Textus Receptus etc.etc. but my faith has somewhat evolved and simplified. I came to a point in my faith where I said "A man with two watches can never be sure of the time. I think it's time for me to put all the other books, about the bible, away and try to live my life in subjection to God's word"

Please don't take that as a slight against the work you did. Your post was well thought out and concisely presented. I'm just in a different place. I had to find something that worked for me and that place is simply accepting the English in the KJV as sufficient to live by, for me. It's been probably 10 or 15 years sense I have cracked open any Greek or Hebrew but the KJV has provided me with more than enough insight and Grace to serve God and walk in His light.

Again, please don't take offence or be discouraged in your walk.

Larry Smile


For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Re: Glory over me [message #786164 is a reply to message #783927 ] Wed, 04 September 2013 05:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bolt.  is currently offline bolt.
Messages: 778
Registered: July 2010
Location: Canada
Senior Member
That's fair, Larry... just remember this important rule of thumb "Things I learn about words in one testament don't necessarily apply to 'the same word' in the other testament, since those two words can't possibly be 'the same word'."

(Also, don't fall into the trap of assuming the KJV was perfectly treated by some sort of inspired translation team. The original languages do matter.)
Re: Glory over me [message #786784 is a reply to message #786164 ] Tue, 17 September 2013 15:16 Go to previous message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
Messages: 6501
Registered: April 2005
Location: NW rural Illinois
Senior Member

bolt. wrote on Wed, 04 September 2013 04:44

That's fair, Larry... just remember this important rule of thumb "Things I learn about words in one testament don't necessarily apply to 'the same word' in the other testament, since those two words can't possibly be 'the same word'."

(Also, don't fall into the trap of assuming the KJV was perfectly treated by some sort of inspired translation team. The original languages do matter.)

True, BUT we can also trust in the heart and mind of God being the same yesterday, today and forever. The truths the Spirit reveals to us through the Word (both OT and NT) transcend translations and word studies. Knowledge of those can be great tools, but not everyone is equipped (or free) to use those tools. The Spirit still works deeply in all our hearts to bring His Truth and revelation to our spirits just as much.

Thanks for sharing this, Larry, and for the place you are in your life!


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Previous Topic:Gideon's Fleece
Next Topic:Cursed?
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Wed Feb 21 09:47:01 EST 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.06681 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

"New Homeschooler Seeking Advice!" ... "I'm just a little overwhelmed with all the choices and teaching styles there are out there."

CHFWeb.com Interactive is Powered by: FUDforum 2.6.12.
Copyright ©2001-2004 FUD Forum Bulletin Board Software