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Home » CHFWeb Forum » HotTopics » Hot Topic poll!
Hot Topic poll! [message #718397] Sat, 24 September 2011 20:45 Go to next message
Michele (Queen of Cheap)  is currently offline Michele (Queen of Cheap)
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I think it is okay for women to be the pastor of a church[ 54 vote(s) ]
1.I think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church. 15 / 28%
2.I do not think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church but I am okay with a woman in other leadership roles (minister of music, children's pastor, deacon/elder etc.) 12 / 22%
3.I do not think it is okay for a woman to have any leadership position in the church but I am okay with her being a Sunday School teacher (any class). 5 / 9%
4.I do not think it is okay for a woman to have any type of ledership role nor be a teacher for any class other than children's classes. 11 / 20%
5.I do not think it is okay for a woman to have any leadership role nor teaching roll. 0 / 0%
6.Obligatory "other." 11 / 20%

Polls are nifty because you can vote anonymously if you would rather if you don't want to get into a heated debate Very Happy Very Happy

I am very old fashioned/conservative on this issue. I do not believe in women having any leadership positions nor teaching positions other than with K-6 children (co-ed) and girls only 7-12. I think the children should be segregated after 6th grade. I also do not agree with women leading prayer in mixed company.


Michele, The Organic Queen of Cheap!
(aka Shelly the Swamp Frog)

Happily posting on CHF since 1995


Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718399 is a reply to message #718397 ] Sat, 24 September 2011 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tracy in Peru  is currently offline Tracy in Peru
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Well, I voted any other class, but really, I mean adult women. I"m okay with a couple teaching a mixed class, or an older woman teaching other women, children and segregated girls. Of course, what I prefer, and what I get are two different things. Wink


In Him--Tracy
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718407 is a reply to message #718397 ] Sat, 24 September 2011 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ReneeL.inMN
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Other here -

Pastor - no

Children's Pastor - no Shocked

Minister of Music - no

Deaconess - yes.....I better agree with that since I am a deaconess! I think they do play a vital role in the church. At least in my church they play a vital role (meal ministry, setting up for communion, showers, cards for shut-ins)

Sunday School - co-ed K-6 - yes

Sunday School - 7 and up a girls only class and I agree on having the classes segregated.

Sunday School - women's Bible study - yes

Adult Sunday School - mixed - no, not unless it is team taught with her husband.


ReneeL.inMN
25yos, 23yos, 13 yod I guess I am old enough for adult children.

My stomach hurts, but I still choose joy! :-)

Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718425 is a reply to message #718407 ] Sun, 25 September 2011 05:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
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ReneeL.inMN wrote on Sun, 25 September 2011 12:50


Adult Sunday School - mixed - no, not unless it is team taught with her husband.


I've always wondered about this - does it have to be *her* husband? I know a woman who is married to one of the pastors at my old church, who sometimes co-leads classes with her husband, but also co-leads with other pastors in the church as well. Would this still satisfy the requirement of being under male headship, do you (all) think?


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718431 is a reply to message #718425 ] Sun, 25 September 2011 08:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michele (Queen of Cheap)  is currently offline Michele (Queen of Cheap)
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I want to take a stab at Elizabby's question. My answer would be no because I don't think a woman should form any sort of bond with any man except her husband, father, and brothers. If she was co-teaching with her brother or husband that would be okay I guess.

Let's say I was teaching a couple's class with another man other than my husband. My husband and the other man's wife sees us working together and laughing and talking together and spending time in person and on the phone planning classes etc. Even though it could be 100% innocent, it could put just a wee bit of doubt and jealousy in the mind of the spouse.

Just as a side note, I could never teach a class with my husband. He and I have different views on many things. If you have two men teaching, the two men could voice their differences and present it to the class for discussion. I am not one to disagree with dh in public (we do discuss our different beliefs in private). I don't think that would be a good situation Very Happy

As an example, we disagree on this issue! Dh does not agree with woman being a pastor or deacon but it okay with a woman being a minister of music, children's pastor and teachers of any class. He is also okay with women leading prayer. I am much more conservative than he in this.


Michele, The Organic Queen of Cheap!
(aka Shelly the Swamp Frog)

Happily posting on CHF since 1995


Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718439 is a reply to message #718397 ] Sun, 25 September 2011 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DeannaBanana  is currently offline DeannaBanana
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Other--cause I'm not sure. A few years ago I would've said, no to women pastors, or teachers of classes of adult classes. At this point I don't have a problem with a woman teaching or praying or leading in church. She is still under the leadership of the pastor. I still don't know about a woman as pastor. I have a hard time seeing how a woman can be under her husband's authority, but then be the person with authority at church. I guess if he didn't attend the church she pastored...but that's a whole 'nother thing. I know that I am uncomfortable with the idea of a female pastor. At some point, I may do more in depth study, but right now, it's just not a priority for me.
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718482 is a reply to message #718397 ] Sun, 25 September 2011 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Laura in VA  is currently offline Laura in VA
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exactly what Renee said Smile


So now the Lord says, "Stop right where you are! Look for the old, godly way; and walk in it. Travel its path and you will find rest for your souls. ~Jer 6:16

Everyone can purchase their freedom by having the courage to forgo the perks of dependency.
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718498 is a reply to message #718439 ] Sun, 25 September 2011 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
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DeannaBanana wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 01:16

I have a hard time seeing how a woman can be under her husband's authority, but then be the person with authority at church.


Well, it can be done and can work well! My minister doesn't seem to have a problem with it, for example. (For the record, I voted #1, obviously! There are more of us than I expected here! Wink )


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718502 is a reply to message #718431 ] Sun, 25 September 2011 19:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
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Michele (Queen of Cheap) wrote on Sun, 25 September 2011 22:36

I want to take a stab at Elizabby's question. My answer would be no because I don't think a woman should form any sort of bond with any man except her husband, father, and brothers. If she was co-teaching with her brother or husband that would be okay I guess.

Let's say I was teaching a couple's class with another man other than my husband. My husband and the other man's wife sees us working together and laughing and talking together and spending time in person and on the phone planning classes etc. Even though it could be 100% innocent, it could put just a wee bit of doubt and jealousy in the mind of the spouse.



I'm not sure this is a good enough reason to make a blanket rule that no woman should *ever* do this - surely it depends on the nature of the relationship/trust between individual spouses?

This is not really a theological/Biblical reason, but a personal/practical reason. I can see how an individual woman might feel this way, and make it a rule for *herself* but I don't see how it can be generalized to all couples on this basis.


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718513 is a reply to message #718397 ] Sun, 25 September 2011 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SkiGirl
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I answered #3, but I was thinking women alone. Now....I will say I think it is fine for women alone to be involved in leadership of say....a group that takes care of practical things like refreshments for a special event, taking care of communion elements, etc. In these cases, she is usually in charge over women.

Now, if she is leading with her dh in a co leadership roll, I think this is perfectly fine. This is what we do. We have a couple in charge of children's ministry. The wife is VERY administrative, but they co-lead. Their assistants are also a couple. Many times, couples lead as teachers in classes, but I think it is perfectly fine for a woman, single woman, or a couple women to help teach classes.


Rebecca
Married to my best friend and mommy to 6.

Daily given more Grace than I will ever deserve....




I didn't vote, but I do have an observation that, even [message #718537 is a reply to message #718407 ] Mon, 26 September 2011 00:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jennyd  is currently offline jennyd
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for a children's pastor, male volunteers are under a female children's pastor (if she is a woman). Seeing a woman organize men sometimes is a little sticky and not the best, in my opinion. I don't know that I would go so far to say that I don't think a woman should be a children's pastor, but I do see some of the problems.


Direct me in the path of your commands, for there I find delight. Psalm 119:35
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718591 is a reply to message #718397 ] Mon, 26 September 2011 10:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bolt.  is currently offline bolt.
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I voted "I think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church." -- Which implies I also think any of the other roles listed would be fine -- with or without her husband as part of a team, whether she or he functioned as the leader of that team.

I believe that in Christianity all leaders are servant leaders. That means all Christian leaders are to submit themselves (in the Biblical sense) to those to whom they offer leadership. Offering to lead those to-whom we have submitted ourselves is the heart of Christian leadership, therefore a woman can lead others, including her husband, while still being submitted to him/them.

But that's because I don't think Biblical submission has any real connection to western post-enlightenment ideas about personal authority over other persons (concepts that involve subordination). I truly think the Biblical idea has been hijacked by societal concepts -- which is a pity, because Biblical submission is an incredibly deep and significant concept that doesn't deserve to be taken so lightly.
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718679 is a reply to message #718591 ] Mon, 26 September 2011 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michele (Queen of Cheap)  is currently offline Michele (Queen of Cheap)
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The "I think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church" is ahead in the poll. Very interesting.


Michele, The Organic Queen of Cheap!
(aka Shelly the Swamp Frog)

Happily posting on CHF since 1995


Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718683 is a reply to message #718679 ] Mon, 26 September 2011 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
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Michele (Queen of Cheap) wrote on Tue, 27 September 2011 07:13

The "I think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church" is ahead in the poll. Very interesting.


Yay! And if this baby is a girl DH and I have agreed to call her Lydia! Very Happy


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718702 is a reply to message #718683 ] Mon, 26 September 2011 21:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michele (Queen of Cheap)  is currently offline Michele (Queen of Cheap)
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Lydia is a beautiful name Smile


Michele, The Organic Queen of Cheap!
(aka Shelly the Swamp Frog)

Happily posting on CHF since 1995


Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718718 is a reply to message #718702 ] Mon, 26 September 2011 22:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
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Lydia IS a beautiful name - my sweet and beautiful AND Godly sister is Lydia. Smile


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718740 is a reply to message #718397 ] Tue, 27 September 2011 07:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MartySC  is currently offline MartySC
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I voted, "I do not think it is okay for a woman to have any type of ledership role nor be a teacher for any class other than children's classes." Actually, I don't see the concept of separate children's classes in the Bible, so while I believe that it is okay for a woman to have this role, I belive it is an unbiblical role.


Wife to my best friend, Mom to 18yog, 16yob, 14yob, 12yob, 11yob, 6yog, and five lost to miscarriage
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718741 is a reply to message #718683 ] Tue, 27 September 2011 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Diana P.  is currently offline Diana P.
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Elizabby wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 18:11

Michele (Queen of Cheap) wrote on Tue, 27 September 2011 07:13

The "I think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church" is ahead in the poll. Very interesting.


Yay! And if this baby is a girl DH and I have agreed to call her Lydia! Very Happy

Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Beautiful choice!


Grace & Peace,
Diana

"Do your best, then rest"

Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718753 is a reply to message #718741 ] Tue, 27 September 2011 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
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Diana P. wrote on Tue, 27 September 2011 07:55

Elizabby wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 18:11

Michele (Queen of Cheap) wrote on Tue, 27 September 2011 07:13

The "I think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church" is ahead in the poll. Very interesting.


Yay! And if this baby is a girl DH and I have agreed to call her Lydia! Very Happy

Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Beautiful choice!



We have a Lydia...Lydia Ruth. Smile My grandmother, as well as the woman in the Bible, was named Ruth.


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #718943 is a reply to message #718397 ] Wed, 28 September 2011 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dina  is currently offline Dina
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Elizabby! Lydia is a beautiful, strong name! Love it!!

I voted #2 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

This is a big change for me, and honestly, i maybe should have voted #1 !!

I am breaking ranks with my dh on this, but more publicly support him, and will not fight or argue about it with him. We have discussed my changing views, however, and i have recently heard a compelling teaching on the topic.

While i prefer a male pastor, my main criteria is that the Pastor or any leader in the church be a true believer. Wink

Also, i have been in situations where dh and i have co taught children and adults, but he is given the title and recognized as the head teacher... when in fact, honestly, I do all of the prep and organizing and networking and follow up, and teaching!!

I have seen this happen with other couples as well. SO i do have an issue with a church ( at large) who recognizes the male on paper, but fully knows that behind closed doors it is the woman who runs the class or heads up the committees/ does all the leg work in the church....( as in deacons/elders).

In our most recent position, i appreciated that my Pastor recognized me as the Youth Leader with ds as my co-leader. This was the truth. And dh and i have learned that this is a very good combination for us. He is oh so knowledgable and is such a great resource and help to me in the classroom!! But the truth is, that i am more the teacher in these situations.

So my question is this. Is it ok with you if your church lies in order to name men as the heads of committees , classes and such?


Dina ....... HE has made me glad!
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #719013 is a reply to message #718397 ] Wed, 28 September 2011 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bolt.  is currently offline bolt.
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I'm OK with a certain amount of fudgey-peacekeeping...

(Things like: assigning couples with the man's name first no matter who does the bulk of work... allowing 'everyone' a say, when 'everyone' is waiting to hear what a leader-woman says so they can agree with her... calling a woman's sermon 'speaking' rather than preaching)

... as long as women are not actually discouraged from their gifts and ministries. These are clever uses of ambiguity and don't-ask-don't-tell, and while they do obscure facts that could be clearer, they are not actually deceptive. A willingness to be less than clear in order to avoid conflict -- I can tolerate that.

I would have a problem with genuine falsehoods...

(Things like calling the man 'lead teacher' and the woman 'assistant' when that's not the case... asking a woman for leadership ideas and then presenting them as if they came from another source... claiming 'this woman is not a teacher' when everyone has learned from her teaching)

... Because they indicate a willingness to misrepresent the truth in order to claim to uphold a practice that is not being upheld in fact.

So, it's a fine line. I'd tend to give the benefit of the doubt until I really couldn't any more.
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #719513 is a reply to message #718943 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
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Quote:

So my question is this. Is it ok with you if your church lies in order to name men as the heads of committees , classes and such?


Along with bolt, I'd have to ask is there really lying going on, or are things happening between a couple because the couple is operating as "one flesh."

If I were to study and plan a lesson and do the research, without every discussing or consulting my dh in any way, then come to a class with my dh in tow and call him the teacher/leader when he's not had one iota of input or participation in what is really MY teaching, and call it "his" class because the church has a prohibition against women teachers, then I'd say the church is lying, and that is a bad thing.

But what if the preparation is more like we do our finances. Dh is absolutely the head of our home and all of our finances are "ours." But the bills are brought to me from the mailbox and kept where I keep track of them. I have the checkbook and I balance it, and when bills come due, I pay them. Someone *could* look at that and think we're lying when I say either that we manage the finances together or that he is in charge of our finances as head of our home. But in reality, we make decisions together about large purchases, and have agreement about smaller "discretionary" amounts, etc. It IS a partnership under his headship even though he's very hands-off about it.

So, if we were teaching a class, even if I did most of the hands-on prep work, you could be assured that I ran everything past him, and we talked together, and really I am just being his helpmeet in gathering information beforehand. That would not be lying, IMHO.

So much depends on how it actually works. If churches ARE lying about how they are set up in order to keep up a certain appearance that is not connected with reality, I do not think that is okay. But there really are nuances in situations where someone who is a black-and-white, hard-line sort of person would believe the situation is a lie when it really isn't because of the way couples truly interact with one another.


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #719527 is a reply to message #719513 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dina  is currently offline Dina
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Lisa R. wrote on Sat, 01 October 2011 15:32

Quote:

So my question is this. Is it ok with you if your church lies in order to name men as the heads of committees , classes and such?


Along with bolt, I'd have to ask is there really lying going on, or are things happening between a couple because the couple is operating as "one flesh." Yes, this is the question and it needs to be looked at honestly. Truely, i have seen the lying aspect on several occasions in churches which do not allow women in leadership.

If I were to study and plan a lesson and do the research, without every discussing or consulting my dh in any way, then come to a class with my dh in tow and call him the teacher/leader when he's not had one iota of input or participation in what is really MY teaching, and call it "his" class because the church has a prohibition against women teachers, then I'd say the church is lying, and that is a bad thing.Yes, this exactly.

But what if the preparation is more like we do our finances. Dh is absolutely the head of our home and all of our finances are "ours." But the bills are brought to me from the mailbox and kept where I keep track of them. I have the checkbook and I balance it, and when bills come due, I pay them. Someone *could* look at that and think we're lying when I say either that we manage the finances together or that he is in charge of our finances as head of our home. But in reality, we make decisions together about large purchases, and have agreement about smaller "discretionary" amounts, etc. It IS a partnership under his headship even though he's very hands-off about it. I understand this, as this is exactly what we do at our house.

So, if we were teaching a class, even if I did most of the hands-on prep work, you could be assured that I ran everything past him, and we talked together, and really I am just being his helpmeet in gathering information beforehand. That would not be lying, IMHO.

So much depends on how it actually works. If churches ARE lying about how they are set up in order to keep up a certain appearance that is not connected with reality, I do not think that is okay. But there really are nuances in situations where someone who is a black-and-white, hard-line sort of person would believe the situation is a lie when it really isn't because of the way couples truly interact with one another.


Dina ....... HE has made me glad!
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #719541 is a reply to message #718397 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jen E.  is currently offline Jen E.
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I agree with Renee!

I voted #2, but want to add that imo pastor and elder are in the same category, and I do not think that it's (Biblically) okay for women to be elders.
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #719542 is a reply to message #718679 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jen E.  is currently offline Jen E.
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Michele (Queen of Cheap) wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 17:13

The "I think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church" is ahead in the poll. Very interesting.


Well, since #1 is "okay for women to be pastors" and #2-5 are "it's not," I think a more accurate score would be

yes, women can be pastors -- 15
no, they shouldn't be pastors -- 26

Very Happy Wink
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #719548 is a reply to message #718397 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 21:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K in nc  is currently offline K in nc
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My vote was other...Minister of Music, Children's Pastor, Sunday School Class...ok...Elder or Pastor...not ok...


Wife to the most wonderful man in the world for 27 years! Mom to the three most wonderful kids in the world! (well most of the time)
Re: Hot Topic poll! [message #719562 is a reply to message #718679 ] Sat, 01 October 2011 23:03 Go to previous message
Karen in TN  is currently offline Karen in TN
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Michele (Queen of Cheap) wrote on Mon, 26 September 2011 16:13

The "I think it is okay for a woman to be a pastor of a church" is ahead in the poll. Very interesting.


It really just appears to be ahead. Numbers 2, 3, 4, and 5 all say no to a woman being a pastor, so you'd sort of have to put those all together as simply "no to woman pastor" (even though each of the no's have a different extenuating circumstance).

Just sayin'.

Karen in TN


wife of 31 years to Richard, Mom to Matthew (26), Adra 24, Shelby 15, Samuel 13, and Ruby Grace 11. Homeschooling for 19 years.
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