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Home » CHFWeb Forum » HotTopics » Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen...
Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544084] Wed, 17 June 2009 09:42 Go to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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Church Discipline Poll[ 14 vote(s) ]
1.In the church discipline situations I have seen, the church has been right 9 / 64%
2.In the church discipline situations I have seen, the church has usually been right 1 / 7%
3.In the church discipline situations I have seen, the church has sometimes been right 0 / 0%
4.In the church discipline situations I have seen, the church has usually been wrong 1 / 7%
5.I have not seen church discipline situations 3 / 21%
6.Something else 0 / 0%
7.Some combo 0 / 0%

...in a church discipline situation where the church itself turned out to be wrong about the situation somehow?

Here's a poll

[Updated on: Wed, 17 June 2009 09:56]


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544103 is a reply to message #544084 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mairi  is currently offline Mairi
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In our church discipline situations, in 3 of the divorce situations the couple chose to restore their marriage and were publicly restored before the congregation. In one other case not related to divorce but another problem our church was the 3rd church the family created the same issue in and after they moved on their next church had the same problems with them. I'd say, then, the Elders weren't wrong in their decisions on that case based on the 'serial' nature of the problems.

I do know that there are many, many situations that come before the Elders but only the ones where there is no repentance end up before the Congregation. The vast majority are resolved with repentance and restoration and no one in the congregation ever knows about them. Only those who choose not to repent are ever brought to the congregation for discipline and then only after months of counsel and prayer.


Mairi
Soli Deo Gloria

"We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves us is never alone." Martin Luther
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544124 is a reply to message #544084 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 10:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MicheleB  is currently offline MicheleB
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I've seen it in reverse... IOW, in situations where a person *should* have received discipline, but instead was coddled. Sad


Michele
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544133 is a reply to message #544124 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 11:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teri in AZ  is currently offline Teri in AZ
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MicheleB wrote on Wed, 17 June 2009 07:47

I've seen it in reverse... IOW, in situations where a person *should* have received discipline, but instead was coddled. Sad


Michele, I've seen both - rightfully instituted discipline and coddling, and sadly, in the same church! Oh well.....


Teri in AZ

God is still on the Throne.
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544138 is a reply to message #544084 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charity  is currently offline Charity
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Mairi - Why was divorce a cause for discipline? Was there infidelity involved? I don't see divorce as a cause for public exposure and discipline unless there was something really extreme going on. I think some situations are more delicate and in order to spare children and other valid reasons, should be handled as privately as possible.

Charity
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544141 is a reply to message #544138 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michele (Queen of Cheap)  is currently offline Michele (Queen of Cheap)
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Our church does not practice church discipline.


Michele, The Organic Queen of Cheap!
(aka Shelly the Swamp Frog)

Happily posting on CHF since 1995


Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544259 is a reply to message #544084 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
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In all the situations I have seen, the church was right, the person was in CLEAR sin, refused to admit it and was totally unrepentant. In all the cases I am aware of that got to this point - the person left the church rather than face the discipline, AND left still saying "I was right". Sad

Some of them left the church altogether, some found more permissive churches.


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544284 is a reply to message #544259 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 22:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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I guess I ask the question because I have seen (especially in a legalistic church that church disciplines openly and often) situations where the probably unsaved husband refused to "submit" to church discipline, and abandoned (say) the wife and children...and then the wife leaves her marriage and (say) remarries and then the church leans toward church disciplining only the wife.

Now, it's rarely 100% one person, 0% the other. But I've heard long-suffering wives say more than once "I kept everything going and didn't tell *anyone* what was going on...when it all fell apart, I was the one who was church disciplined." Or "no one from the church reached out to me until the two men came to mete out church discipline".

[Now, it's true that in some cases, I only ever heard the perspective of the wife and don't know both sides. But at least once, I was involved in the family's life when it happened and knew that it was true.]

However, we have seen great fruit in our own church from church discipline, where like Mairi says, it's used only when necessary and most things are resolved during the Matthew 5 and 18 process and are not apparent to onlookers. We also have seen marriages restored, repentant hearts, amazing stories of real salvation after years of part-playing. I thought it was *so mean* when I first came to know the Lord...until I started seeing the results, over time...and eventually found the passages it was based on.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 19:23]


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544285 is a reply to message #544138 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 22:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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Charity -- I have seen from a distance divorce cases handled via church discipline, not for divorce per se, but for "taking a brother to court".


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544288 is a reply to message #544084 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charity  is currently offline Charity
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I am totally baffled as to why an abandoned wife would be disciplined for divorce? Scripture makes it clear that a woman abandoned by an unbeliever is not guilty and free to remarry.


Charity
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544289 is a reply to message #544288 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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I wasn't privy to what was discussed at that church, but would guess it's because they are "One Wife for Lifers" [edited to say:], no matter what the circumstances.

On a tangent, a pastor from a church like this had to marry two members from his church that he considered biblically able to remarry in *our church* [with the permission and encouragement of our pastor] because it would have caused a ruckus at his church to marry them there.

There also was something odd mentioned about ummm...thinking of the word...degrading the sanctuary physical church space at their church...or something...degrading is not the right word, but a similar concept.

[Tangent: the same reason was given in another church when a family was barred at the sanctuary door because the mom and girls were not wearing dresses/skirts. They were there to clean the building, but were told that they could clean any part of the building except the sanctuary because pants-wearing for women would [some word like] degrade the sanctuary.]

[And you might wonder why this is all still culture shock to me, very often?]

Note: the church discipline situations in this post did NOT happen in my church. Our church disciplines when needed, but it's very rare because so many things are resolved along the way, often during counseling.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 19:58]


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544296 is a reply to message #544084 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 22:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charity  is currently offline Charity
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Moving from baffled to horrified....
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544306 is a reply to message #544138 ] Wed, 17 June 2009 23:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Char in mid-south  is currently offline Char in mid-south
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Charity wrote on Wed, 17 June 2009 10:35

Mairi - Why was divorce a cause for discipline? Was there infidelity involved? I don't see divorce as a cause for public exposure and discipline unless there was something really extreme going on. I think some situations are more delicate and in order to spare children and other valid reasons, should be handled as privately as possible.

Charity



I completely agree. Divorce is a VERY painful thing for those going through it and their children. People who have never BTDT could never understand. Crying or Very Sad


Your Sista-Chick in Christ and Friend


Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544346 is a reply to message #544306 ] Thu, 18 June 2009 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
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Char in mid-south wrote on Thu, 18 June 2009 13:30

Divorce is a VERY painful thing for those going through it and their children. People who have never BTDT could never understand.


I'm not sure it is entirely fair to say that a person who has never been divorced can't understand. Perhaps on an emotional level they haven't had the same experience, but loss and grief are universal human experiences. I'm also not convinced that not being divorced means that people aren't allowed to have an opinion on the subject of divorce - which is often what people mean by "you don't understand".

I agree with the general sentiment that divorce should not usually be a cause for church discipline - IMO it is usually the remarriage/repartnering that causes the problems, rather than the divorce itself. Most of the children I see have issues with their parents splitting up, but FAR more issues if the repartnering is not handled sensitively and with consideration. Most of the time it isn't exactly "the Brady Bunch"!

Case in point: a friend of mine (who should have known better) decided to "surprise" her 13yo daughter one morning by saying "Guess what? I'm getting married today!" Shocked In ALL the wedding photos the daughter is crying her eyes out, and didn't speak to her step-father for over two years. Sad

Obviously, this is a worst-case scenario - I seriously cannot think of anything worse for a teenage daughter still living at home than to have a man she hates move in and "take her mother away". Most of the time remarriages are handled much better than this - thank goodness!


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544459 is a reply to message #544346 ] Thu, 18 June 2009 15:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
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elizabby wrote on Thu, 18 June 2009 06:14

Char in mid-south wrote on Thu, 18 June 2009 13:30

Divorce is a VERY painful thing for those going through it and their children. People who have never BTDT could never understand.


I'm not sure it is entirely fair to say that a person who has never been divorced can't understand. Perhaps on an emotional level they haven't had the same experience, but loss and grief are universal human experiences. I'm also not convinced that not being divorced means that people aren't allowed to have an opinion on the subject of divorce - which is often what people mean by "you don't understand".


Just a tiny comment here. Smile I don't see that anyone is saying people who haven't gone through divorce can not have an opinion on this.

Also, "you don't understand" is true. One who hasn't gone through this (either as the offending spouse or the offended) doesn't understand in great detail. It's always easier to settle on an acceptable opinion if you aren't in it yourself. Once it's happening to you you look much more closely. Maybe the non-divorced person's opinion is really right on but many times (in my opinion most times) isn't.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 15:09]


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544530 is a reply to message #544346 ] Thu, 18 June 2009 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Char in mid-south  is currently offline Char in mid-south
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elizabby wrote on Thu, 18 June 2009 06:14

Char in mid-south wrote on Thu, 18 June 2009 13:30

Divorce is a VERY painful thing for those going through it and their children. People who have never BTDT could never understand.


I'm not sure it is entirely fair to say that a person who has never been divorced can't understand. Perhaps on an emotional level they haven't had the same experience, but loss and grief are universal human experiences. I'm also not convinced that not being divorced means that people aren't allowed to have an opinion on the subject of divorce - which is often what people mean by "you don't understand".

I agree with the general sentiment that divorce should not usually be a cause for church discipline - IMO it is usually the remarriage/repartnering that causes the problems, rather than the divorce itself. Most of the children I see have issues with their parents splitting up, but FAR more issues if the repartnering is not handled sensitively and with consideration. Most of the time it isn't exactly "the Brady Bunch"!

Case in point: a friend of mine (who should have known better) decided to "surprise" her 13yo daughter one morning by saying "Guess what? I'm getting married today!" Shocked In ALL the wedding photos the daughter is crying her eyes out, and didn't speak to her step-father for over two years. Sad

Obviously, this is a worst-case scenario - I seriously cannot think of anything worse for a teenage daughter still living at home than to have a man she hates move in and "take her mother away". Most of the time remarriages are handled much better than this - thank goodness!





Elizabby,

When did I ever say one could never have their own "opinion"? I think you are jumping to conclusions quite unfairly stating that those who may say, such as I have said, that others who have never been through a divorce could never really understand are "really saying others can't have an opinion". Quite frankly, I have an opinion about most things but that does not mean I understand everything. I still hold firm to my statement. Unless one has been through a divorce themselves they can never truly understand the depth of pain and anguish one struggles with.

Many remarriages I have seen have been BLESSED by the new marriages. Mine is one of them. My teenage daughter LOVES and ADORES my husband!! My little ones love and adore ME! And both Louis and I have taken our roles as loving parents and there is NO difference between the one I birthed and the two I am a "step-momma" too and same for Louis! Our children are OUR children. We don't say.... "this is my STEP-son/daughter" We say "this is my son/daughter". Clarissa is Louis' daughter! Nina is my daughter! Stephen is my son! All three are our babies and we love, guide, correct, raise up to know and love the Lord, play with, and nurture.

Don;t believe that most remarriages are terrible experiences. They aren't.


Your Sista-Chick in Christ and Friend


Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544536 is a reply to message #544530 ] Thu, 18 June 2009 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Teri in AZ  is currently offline Teri in AZ
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Char, I'm saying this as gently as possible, so please hear it in that tone - you are very fortunate, because not all step families are as well-adjusted as yours appears to be. You are still in a lot of regards in the honeymoon stage. In fact in my experience with step family support groups in the past several years proves that your situation is NOT the norm. Please don't turn a blind eye to issues that may, and undoubtedly will, crop up. (I'm sure you won't!) I often refer to our family as "cuisinarted" and not "blended" because that's how it felt at times. It was and at times still is very painful. We're adapting, but it still is NOT without it's challenges, MOST ESPECIALLY when there are other parents involved.


Teri in AZ

God is still on the Throne.
Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544545 is a reply to message #544536 ] Thu, 18 June 2009 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Char in mid-south  is currently offline Char in mid-south
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Teri in AZ wrote on Thu, 18 June 2009 18:19

Char, I'm saying this as gently as possible, so please hear it in that tone - you are very fortunate, because not all step families are as well-adjusted as yours appears to be. You are still in a lot of regards in the honeymoon stage. In fact in my experience with step family support groups in the past several years proves that your situation is NOT the norm. Please don't turn a blind eye to issues that may, and undoubtedly will, crop up. (I'm sure you won't!) I often refer to our family as "cuisinarted" and not "blended" because that's how it felt at times. It was and at times still is very painful. We're adapting, but it still is NOT without it's challenges, MOST ESPECIALLY when there are other parents involved.



Oh, no doubt at all we will have challenges. In fact, we have them WEEKLY with the little's biological mother and the irresponsibility of my ex. However, I hate seeing "blanket statements" about remarriage ruining children! In many cases it's the painful abusive marriages that have hurt them terribly. Why blame the REMARRIAGE? Why not place blame where it REALLY belongs..... such as the bad marriage that fell apart and the REASONS it fell apart?


Your Sista-Chick in Christ and Friend


Re: Bunny Trail from Matthew 5 and 18: Have you seen... [message #544551 is a reply to message #544545 ] Thu, 18 June 2009 20:57 Go to previous message
Teri in AZ  is currently offline Teri in AZ
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Char in mid-south wrote on Thu, 18 June 2009 17:30

Teri in AZ wrote on Thu, 18 June 2009 18:19

Char, I'm saying this as gently as possible, so please hear it in that tone - you are very fortunate, because not all step families are as well-adjusted as yours appears to be. You are still in a lot of regards in the honeymoon stage. In fact in my experience with step family support groups in the past several years proves that your situation is NOT the norm. Please don't turn a blind eye to issues that may, and undoubtedly will, crop up. (I'm sure you won't!) I often refer to our family as "cuisinarted" and not "blended" because that's how it felt at times. It was and at times still is very painful. We're adapting, but it still is NOT without it's challenges, MOST ESPECIALLY when there are other parents involved.



Oh, no doubt at all we will have challenges. In fact, we have them WEEKLY with the little's biological mother and the irresponsibility of my ex. However, I hate seeing "blanket statements" about remarriage ruining children! In many cases it's the painful abusive marriages that have hurt them terribly. Why blame the REMARRIAGE? Why not place blame where it REALLY belongs..... such as the bad marriage that fell apart and the REASONS it fell apart?



I'm with you there. (Boy did we take this off topic or what?)


Teri in AZ

God is still on the Throne.
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Divorce and the Call to Ministry ... I was asked by group leader in my Bible study if I'd consider a leadership position. I prayed and felt it was a good thing, my dh and kids supported me and I let them know I could do it. I was then interviewed for the position. It started out great. I shared my testimony of coming to know Christ as Lord and was just so enthusiastic. Then, the bomb came...I had been divorced years ago. This eliminated me from leading a group of women...With this plea for wisdom a great discussion was born! The divorced and ministry, are the two compatable?

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