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Home » CHFWeb Forum » HotTopics » BT: Just curious
BT: Just curious [message #514533] Wed, 11 March 2009 20:53 Go to next message
Carrie L  is currently offline Carrie L
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Do you believe in the doctrine of election?[ 22 vote(s) ]
1.I believe in election but not limited atonement 4 / 18%
2.I do not believe in election or limited atonement 6 / 27%
3.I believe in election and limited atonement 10 / 45%
4.other 2 / 9%

I'm just curious how many believe in election - by which I mean - God chose, before the foundation of the world, who would be His own.


Carrie

Only three things are necessary to make life happy: the blessing of God, books, and a friend.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514665 is a reply to message #514533 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 08:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MartySC  is currently offline MartySC
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To me they are thesame thing. If I were chosen before the Creation of the world for salvation, then Jesus' Blood atones for me. But if, say, Hitler, was not chosen, then Jesus' Blood does not atone for him.

I guess coloring my view of things is the fact that I do not believe the dimension of time applies to God. He created it and understands it, but He does not exist in it. So from my limited viewpoint, I see all these things as happening at the same time in God's viewpoint. Does that make sense?


Wife to my best friend, Mom to 18yog, 16yob, 14yob, 12yob, 11yob, 6yog, and five lost to miscarriage
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514719 is a reply to message #514533 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa T.  is currently offline Lisa T.
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Jesus died for us all. God chose us by the very virtue of our creation as His children. You don't choose some children to be saved, and not others.

Some of us are elected, but choose not to serve. Sad


Lisa T.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514722 is a reply to message #514719 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 11:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
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Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 11:31

Jesus died for us all. God chose us by the very virtue of our creation as His children. You don't choose some children to be saved, and not others.

Some of us are elected, but choose not to serve. Sad


I thought the children of God = those who are born again. Sounds like some (not just you, Lisa Smile) believe all humans are children of God.

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.
(1Jn 3:7-12
)


Chris, GA
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514725 is a reply to message #514722 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa T.  is currently offline Lisa T.
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Chris, GA wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 10:40

Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 11:31

Jesus died for us all. God chose us by the very virtue of our creation as His children. You don't choose some children to be saved, and not others.

Some of us are elected, but choose not to serve. Sad


I thought the children of God = those who are born again. Sounds like some (not just you, Lisa Smile) believe all humans are children of God.

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.
(1Jn 3:7-12
)




Yes, we are created by God, so we belong to Him at the moment of our creation. If we walk away from Him, then we are choosing the devil.


Lisa T.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514730 is a reply to message #514725 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
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Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 11:49

Chris, GA wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 10:40

Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 11:31

Jesus died for us all. God chose us by the very virtue of our creation as His children. You don't choose some children to be saved, and not others.

Some of us are elected, but choose not to serve. Sad


I thought the children of God = those who are born again. Sounds like some (not just you, Lisa Smile) believe all humans are children of God.

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.
(1Jn 3:7-12
)




Yes, we are created by God, so we belong to Him at the moment of our creation. If we walk away from Him, then we are choosing the devil.


Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name...


Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


Chris, GA
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514732 is a reply to message #514719 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Polly  is currently offline Polly
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Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 10:31

Jesus died for us all. God chose us by the very virtue of our creation as His children. You don't choose some children to be saved, and not others.

Some of us are elected, but choose not to serve. Sad


Not at *all* trying to be antagonistic...but this *seems* to imply that:

1. Either heaven will be full of everyone that God created

OR

2. My decision and will can overpower God


Polly
wishing for snow in N MS



Re: BT: Just curious [message #514734 is a reply to message #514533 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charity  is currently offline Charity
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I usually refuse to discuss this topic, but have to give Lisa a little support here. I believe the same as Lisa. God created all. We're all His children. God chose all. Jesus died for all. Our will does supercede God because God chose to set it up that way. He voluntarily allows us to be the deciding factor regarding salvation. Not going to defend my view. Just didnt' want Lisa to be alone here.

Charity
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514735 is a reply to message #514719 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
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Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 11:31

Jesus died for us all. God chose us by the very virtue of our creation as His children. You don't choose some children to be saved, and not others.

Some of us are elected, but choose not to serve. Sad


This is a different phrasing and spin on the topic than I've heard yet.

I thought "The Elect" referred to those who are saved & going to heaven, whether one believes one is "elect" by God's choice without regard for the will of the individual or whether one believes one is "elect" by "accepting" God's gift of salvation.

I don't think I've ever heard that everyone is elect and some choose to walk away.

Is this a semantical issue or a third variation on the whole election issue?


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514738 is a reply to message #514734 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
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Charity wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 12:07

I usually refuse to discuss this topic, but have to give Lisa a little support here. I believe the same as Lisa. God created all. We're all His children. God chose all. Jesus died for all. Our will does supercede God because God chose to set it up that way. He voluntarily allows us to be the deciding factor regarding salvation. Not going to defend my view. Just didnt' want Lisa to be alone here.

Charity


What does the verse that says those who believe are the children of God and that we were enemies mean then?


Chris, GA
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514748 is a reply to message #514533 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Polly  is currently offline Polly
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Oh, I must respectfully disagree jwith you Charity, that God gave that to us.

John 15;16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you"

Romans 8 several verses...
"There is none righteous, not even one.
there is noone who understands, there is noone who seeks God"

I also read consistently that while we were in sin, Christ died for us....that while we were *dead* in sin, Christ reached out to us.

I believe that *choosing God* would be an act of righteous that I would not be capable of in and of myself. I believe that God had to make the first step and open my eyes to the fact that I even needed a Savior.

Scripture also tells us that anything good we do is from God alone, and not of ourselves, lest we should boast.


Polly
wishing for snow in N MS



Re: BT: Just curious [message #514752 is a reply to message #514748 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Polly  is currently offline Polly
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Romans 9 is also particularly clear on God's sovereign choice

I believe Chris is referring to Romans 5:10


Polly
wishing for snow in N MS



Re: BT: Just curious [message #514756 is a reply to message #514735 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carrie L  is currently offline Carrie L
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Lisa R. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 12:08

Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 11:31

Jesus died for us all. God chose us by the very virtue of our creation as His children. You don't choose some children to be saved, and not others.

Some of us are elected, but choose not to serve. Sad


This is a different phrasing and spin on the topic than I've heard yet.

I thought "The Elect" referred to those who are saved & going to heaven, whether one believes one is "elect" by God's choice without regard for the will of the individual or whether one believes one is "elect" by "accepting" God's gift of salvation.

I don't think I've ever heard that everyone is elect and some choose to walk away.

Is this a semantical issue or a third variation on the whole election issue?

I'm with you, Lisa R - never heard this explanation before!


Carrie

Only three things are necessary to make life happy: the blessing of God, books, and a friend.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514759 is a reply to message #514734 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
denise d
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Charity wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 10:07

I usually refuse to discuss this topic, but have to give Lisa a little support here. I believe the same as Lisa. God created all. We're all His children. God chose all. Jesus died for all. Our will does supercede God because God chose to set it up that way. He voluntarily allows us to be the deciding factor regarding salvation. Not going to defend my view. Just didnt' want Lisa to be alone here.

Charity



I, too, believe Christ died for all. That we can choose Him or not(freewill). And that because God lives outside of time, He knows who will choose Him, and so we are chosen (how I understand as close as I can, predestination).

If that lines me up behind y'all, I think it is a fine place to be.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 March 2009 13:00]


God is Love.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514765 is a reply to message #514533 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MartySC  is currently offline MartySC
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Polly,

I agree with you and think you have expressed what I see scripture to say very well.

I keep coming back to the verses in John 6:37-40
Quote:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, [b]that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[b] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


If some can choose to walk away, then they can thwart the will of God. Doesn't that make them stronger than an omnipotent God?


Editting to add: This week, we have been reading Exodus to prepare for a presentation by Jews for Jesus about Christ in Passover. I keep reading of the terrible things God did to all the Egyptians, but none of the Israelites. Why? To show His power. Exodus 10:1-2
Quote:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.


God does choose some for salvation and some for destruction. There could have been Egyptians who believed after the first plague that God was real and they should let the Israelites go. Yet they still had to endure 9 more plagues, including the death of their first born.

I think to beleive that God wants people to choose Him who don't is to underestimate who God is.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 March 2009 13:29]


Wife to my best friend, Mom to 18yog, 16yob, 14yob, 12yob, 11yob, 6yog, and five lost to miscarriage
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514769 is a reply to message #514752 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
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Polly wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 12:43


I believe Chris is referring to Romans 5:10


Yes, I quoted it and another verse above...then Charity posted, so I was wondering what she thought of the verses I previously quoted. Smile


Chris, GA
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514771 is a reply to message #514533 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 13:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charity  is currently offline Charity
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I was responding to this thread in "poll mode." Meaning...just weighing in with a vote and my view. Not really interested in discussing it or defending my view. I'm familiar with the classic arguments on both sides. Don't have the time or motivation to explain mine and don't really feel the necessity of refuting other viewpoints. I think we are all pretty committed to what we believe. I'm comfortable with the fact that we have different views on this.

Charity
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514772 is a reply to message #514771 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 13:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
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Charity wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 13:36

I was responding to this thread in "poll mode." Meaning...just weighing in with a vote and my view. Not really interested in discussing it or defending my view. I'm familiar with the classic arguments on both sides. Don't have the time or motivation to explain mine and don't really feel the necessity of refuting other viewpoints. I think we are all pretty committed to what we believe. I'm comfortable with the fact that we have different views on this.

Charity


That's cool, Charity. I'm not looking for a defense per say, but was just curious how you view the verses I responded with. Since you and Lisa believe the same way, perhaps she'll answer.


Chris, GA
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514774 is a reply to message #514765 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
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MartySC wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 12:19

God does choose some for salvation and some for destruction. There could have been Egyptians who believed after the first plague that God was real and they should let the Israelites go. Yet they still had to endure 9 more plagues, including the death of their first born.



If you read the passage in Exodus between Moses and Pharaoh, you will see that Pharaoh would harden his heart, then God would harden it, and back and forth.


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514792 is a reply to message #514725 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michelle, IL  is currently offline Michelle, IL
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Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 10:49


Yes, we are created by God, so we belong to Him at the moment of our creation. If we walk away from Him, then we are choosing the devil.


This thought is troubling to me. What of original sin? Are we not born separated from the Lord? This sounds like everyone is born "saved" then can choose to walk away from the Lord.

Michelle


Wife to 1. Mom to 4 dds ages 20, 18, 8 & 8 and 1 one wonderful ds (age 15) right in the middle of those 4 girls.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514795 is a reply to message #514774 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
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I pretty much agree with Lisa T. too. I want to also say that I have been studying the doctrine of election along other than traditional lines. Not much to share yet but I'm wondering if the elect are not the only saved people but are separately called (by "force" if you will) to serve in a special way. I posted the verse "..and especially of those who believe" (I Tim. 4:10) which seems to have two categories of "saved" people. Those who are saved and those who are saved who believed. ?????


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514796 is a reply to message #514792 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
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Michelle, IL wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 13:26

Lisa T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 10:49


Yes, we are created by God, so we belong to Him at the moment of our creation. If we walk away from Him, then we are choosing the devil.


This thought is troubling to me. What of original sin? Are we not born separated from the Lord? This sounds like everyone is born "saved" then can choose to walk away from the Lord.

Michelle


Well, I don't know and I agree that the bible seems to say we are born "lost". The whole age of accountability thing (which I don't know if it is true or not) basically says that all pre-born and very young people are automatically saved. So, were they really all ready in a saved state or did they get a free pass at the time of their death?????


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514797 is a reply to message #514533 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
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Carrie L wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 19:53

I'm just curious how many believe in election - by which I mean - God chose, before the foundation of the world, who would be His own.


I put "other" because I believe in election and unlimited atonement. You didn't have that choice.

[Updated on: Thu, 12 March 2009 14:33]


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514798 is a reply to message #514796 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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Oh, you guys are making my head hurt <laughing>

I appreciate SO much that people are willing to talk calmly about the various ideas surrounding these issues...there are very very few people in my 3-D life that that happens with these days <rolling eyes>


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514800 is a reply to message #514797 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
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Janice T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 14:33

Carrie L wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 19:53

I'm just curious how many believe in election - by which I mean - God chose, before the foundation of the world, who would be His own.


I put "other" because I believe in election and unlimited atonement. You didn't have that choice.




Isn't that #1?


Chris, GA
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514802 is a reply to message #514800 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
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Chris, GA wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 13:42

Janice T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 14:33

Carrie L wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 19:53

I'm just curious how many believe in election - by which I mean - God chose, before the foundation of the world, who would be His own.


I put "other" because I believe in election and unlimited atonement. You didn't have that choice.




Isn't that #1?



Sorry! Chris is right. I choose #1!

Thanks Chris.


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514803 is a reply to message #514802 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
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Janice T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 14:45

Chris, GA wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 13:42

Janice T. wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 14:33

Carrie L wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 19:53

I'm just curious how many believe in election - by which I mean - God chose, before the foundation of the world, who would be His own.


I put "other" because I believe in election and unlimited atonement. You didn't have that choice.




Isn't that #1?



Sorry! Chris is right. I choose #1!

Thanks Chris.




LOL, where's the smiley with his head spinning? Laughing Laughing


Chris, GA
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514807 is a reply to message #514803 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 14:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
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Chris, GA wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 13:46



LOL, where's the smiley with his head spinning? Laughing Laughing



Yes! That would really fit here wouldn't it?? Laughing


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: BT: Just curious [message #514846 is a reply to message #514734 ] Thu, 12 March 2009 16:58 Go to previous message
Lori in Michigan
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Charity wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 11:07

I usually refuse to discuss this topic, but have to give Lisa a little support here. I believe the same as Lisa. God created all. We're all His children. God chose all. Jesus died for all. Our will does supercede God because God chose to set it up that way. He voluntarily allows us to be the deciding factor regarding salvation. Not going to defend my view. Just didnt' want Lisa to be alone here.

Charity
Backing up Lisa T. and Charity here...


Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:22-31
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