Welcome to CHFWeb.com  The Christian Homeschool Fellowship on the WEB
Quick Start
[Support our Advertisers!] Getting Started on the Homeschooling BUS!
SheLaughed.com
CHFWeb Forum Area Articles of Significance on CHFWeb.com CHFWeb Mall --For all your resource needs! Library Area on CHFWeb.com Advertise Contact Us
CHFWeb Help!
[Support our Advertisers!] Contributions from our Members:   What if He Rebels? ... Even when we feel weak and helpless, the Lord is still strong and MORE than able to do the necessary work in our children's hearts. [Support our Advertisers!]
Home » CHFWeb Forum » HotTopics » Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole world
Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole world [message #513497] Mon, 09 March 2009 11:29 Go to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
Messages: 9592
Registered: April 2005
Location: Small Town New Hampshire
Senior Member

Atonement and Love Poll[ 20 vote(s) ]
1.I believe that Jesus died for the whole world and loves the whole world, although not everyone will be saved 11 / 55%
2.I believe that Jesus died for the whole world but does not love the whole world 0 / 0%
3.I believe that Jesus only died for some people and loves the whole world 7 / 35%
4.I believe that Jesus only died for some people and only loves some people 2 / 10%
5.Some combo 0 / 0%
6.Something else 0 / 0%

...or not.

I asked the question in one of those threads: If you have a limited view, would you teach your children "Jesus Love Me, This I Know?" and got yeses from some limited people...

So, I wonder: is the view that Jesus atoned for the whole world or not different somehow from the idea that Jesus loves the whole world?

<trying to dig down and figure out why I just don't understand/see this concept still>

Here's a poll:

[Updated on: Mon, 09 March 2009 21:55]


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513506 is a reply to message #513497 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
Considering our sin, we really should all be unloved and deserve to go to Hell. But, since that is not the case, I can't reconcile why He wouldn't love, and die for all.


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513555 is a reply to message #513497 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 14:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
Messages: 14916
Registered: April 2005
Location: Georgia
Senior Member

"But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513564 is a reply to message #513497 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 10:29


So, I wonder: is the view that Jesus atoned for the whole world or not different somehow from the idea that Jesus loves the whole world?



If it is His will that "none" should perish, I can't see any way to define that to mean "with the exception of some".


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513570 is a reply to message #513564 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
Messages: 3217
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Kim L. from MO wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:00



If it is His will that "none" should perish, I can't see any way to define that to mean "with the exception of some".



Here we go, LOL Wink. First the verse you are referring to is speaking about the second coming. God is demonstrating his patience in waiting for His children to be saved. Second, God doesn't wish for any of us to sin...and yet. The rest of that verse is "but that all would come to repentance" (my paraphrase), and yet they do not. So what God "wishes" in this verse is not what actually will occur.

Either what God wishes in the BOLD words will not come to pass or everyone will come to repentance.

Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
(2Pe 3:3-10)

[Updated on: Mon, 09 March 2009 15:12]


Chris, GA
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513577 is a reply to message #513497 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
Messages: 8308
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
I chose number 1. I know God "hated" Esau but there are also many verses that say He loves the "world" which I take to mean.... the world.

And using Chris's verse: "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"

I would think that if He didn't love everyone then He wouldn't be wishing that everyone would come to repentance.

[Updated on: Mon, 09 March 2009 15:27]


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513584 is a reply to message #513577 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
Janice T. wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 14:24

I chose number 1. I know God "hated" Esau but there are also many verses that say He loves the "world" which I take to mean.... the world.

And using Chris's verse: "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"

I would think that if He didn't love everyone then He wouldn't be wishing that everyone would come to repentance.




Or, using Lisa's verse, "While we were sinners", not "While some were sinners. I can't imagine John 3:6 to say, For God so loved some of the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That to some who believe in Him, they will not perish, but have everlasting life. How does one know when the Bible is speaking to them, and not someone else?

I didn't follow much on the other threads, so I am probably restating things already mentioned before. Do people really believe that God chooses people to go to Hell, and that the Bible doesn't apply to all?


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513592 is a reply to message #513584 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
Messages: 3217
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Kim L. from MO wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:39



I didn't follow much on the other threads, so I am probably restating things already mentioned before. Do people really believe that God chooses people to go to Hell, and that the Bible doesn't apply to all?


God would be completely JUST to send us ALL to hell...and yet in His grace and Mercy has chosen SOME to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

I don't know what "and that the Bible doesn't apply to all" means...I believe the Bible is infallible, inerrant and The Truth in all situations.


Chris, GA
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513595 is a reply to message #513592 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
Chris, GA wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:10

Kim L. from MO wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:39



I didn't follow much on the other threads, so I am probably restating things already mentioned before. Do people really believe that God chooses people to go to Hell, and that the Bible doesn't apply to all?


God would be completely JUST to send us ALL to hell...and yet in His grace and Mercy has chosen SOME to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

I don't know what "and that the Bible doesn't apply to all" means...I believe the Bible is infallible, inerrant and The Truth in all situations.



Of course He would be just to send us all to Hell. We know that the road that leads to Heaven is narrow, and broad is the road that leads to destruction. Is that because God has chosen more people to go to Hell?

The Bible is inerrant and infallible. Do you (not you, specifically) share John 3:16, this is the good news of the gospel, if God hasn't already chosen you to go to Hell. It is like the vitamin enriched soda thread Michelle started. You can say it is healthy because of the vitamins, but it would be prudent to also say that it is still soda. As opposed to just trying to pass it off as healthy soda. I know, bad analogy. Just trying to get a glimpse of the other view, which I have hardly ever heard before.

I am not sure that I believe that the bible was written for only some.


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513596 is a reply to message #513497 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 16:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
Is there a name for the belief that Jesus died for some? Is it limited atonement?


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513597 is a reply to message #513595 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 16:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
Messages: 3217
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Kim L. from MO wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 16:36

Chris, GA wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:10

Kim L. from MO wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:39



I didn't follow much on the other threads, so I am probably restating things already mentioned before. Do people really believe that God chooses people to go to Hell, and that the Bible doesn't apply to all?


God would be completely JUST to send us ALL to hell...and yet in His grace and Mercy has chosen SOME to be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

I don't know what "and that the Bible doesn't apply to all" means...I believe the Bible is infallible, inerrant and The Truth in all situations.



Of course He would be just to send us all to Hell. We know that the road that leads to Heaven is narrow, and broad is the road that leads to destruction. Is that because God has chosen more people to go to Hell?

The Bible is inerrant and infallible. Do you (not you, specifically) share John 3:16, this is the good news of the gospel, if God hasn't already chosen you to go to Hell. It is like the vitamin enriched soda thread Michelle started. You can say it is healthy because of the vitamins, but it would be prudent to also say that it is still soda. As opposed to just trying to pass it off as healthy soda. I know, bad analogy. Just trying to get a glimpse of the other view, which I have hardly ever heard before.

I am not sure that I believe that the bible was written for only some.


We went into that verse in detail in another one of Sherry's Hot Topics Smile. If you search, you will find it Smile.


Chris, GA
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513602 is a reply to message #513597 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
Chris, GA wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:39

We went into that verse in detail in another one of Sherry's Hot Topics Smile. If you search, you will find it Smile.



Ok, just read through it. I am obviously not a Calvinist in my understanding. I will have to just be a person who was drawn by the power of the Holy Spirit to believe unto salvation. What are those called?


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513603 is a reply to message #513602 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
Messages: 3217
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Kim L. from MO wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 16:54

Chris, GA wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:39

We went into that verse in detail in another one of Sherry's Hot Topics Smile. If you search, you will find it Smile.



Ok, just read through it. I am obviously not a Calvinist in my understanding. I will have to just be a person who was drawn by the power of the Holy Spirit to believe unto salvation. What are those called?


Those are called Christians...I'm one too, so are many Calvinists and Arminians and folks who don't like labels Smile.

[Updated on: Mon, 09 March 2009 16:56]


Chris, GA
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513606 is a reply to message #513602 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
Messages: 14916
Registered: April 2005
Location: Georgia
Senior Member

Kim L. from MO wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 16:54

Chris, GA wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:39

We went into that verse in detail in another one of Sherry's Hot Topics Smile. If you search, you will find it Smile.



Ok, just read through it. I am obviously not a Calvinist in my understanding. I will have to just be a person who was drawn by the power of the Holy Spirit to believe unto salvation. What are those called?


Christians! Very Happy


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513608 is a reply to message #513603 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
Chris, GA wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:56


Those are called Christians...I'm one too, so are many Calvinists and Arminians and folks who don't like labels Smile.



I can't stand the labels, as if man has understood the things of God. I remember when dh and I were invited to interview a prospective pastor to our church and he was asked if he was a 5 point Calvinist. I wanted to just ask him if he was saved.


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513609 is a reply to message #513497 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 17:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
So, are these two beliefs denominational things?


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513613 is a reply to message #513608 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
Messages: 14916
Registered: April 2005
Location: Georgia
Senior Member

Kim L. from MO wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 17:06

Chris, GA wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 15:56


Those are called Christians...I'm one too, so are many Calvinists and Arminians and folks who don't like labels Smile.



I can't stand the labels, as if man has understood the things of God. I remember when dh and I were invited to interview a prospective pastor to our church and he was asked if he was a 5 point Calvinist. I wanted to just ask him if he was saved.


I agree, Kim. IMHO, the problem with being a 5-pt. Calvinist or any other label is that (for instance), a man named Calvin distilled or summarized the main points of the gospel message in to 5 points---but that's not the whole gospel. (And I don't think Calvin would say it is!)

Paul says:
Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.”

Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Cor. 1:12-13

I believe that Calvin and Arminius and many other theologians have much to teach us about the Bible. But they are only men, and the Bible is much more than what those men taught.


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513615 is a reply to message #513613 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kim L. from MO  is currently offline Kim L. from MO
Messages: 2235
Registered: April 2005
Location: Missouri
Senior Member
Lisa R. wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 16:18

But they are only men, and the Bible is much more than what those men taught.


Sadly, many subscribe to the writings of those outside of the Bible for their theology, even popular fiction books.


"....And if your Master’s truth offends the gentlemen to whom you speak of it let them be offended. His name we must confess; of His glory we will continually talk…" Charles Spurgeon
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513643 is a reply to message #513613 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 18:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
Messages: 8308
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Lisa R. wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 16:18


...But they are only men....


Good reminder!



TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513650 is a reply to message #513497 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 18:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
Messages: 3217
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
I think it's important to remember that just because someone believes the BIBLE teaches Limited Atonement doesn't mean one is following after the ideas of men. I do not call myself a Calvinist or refer to points or anything else. I prefer to discuss God's word and the doctrines taught therein.


Chris, GA
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513653 is a reply to message #513497 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 18:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lunchlady  is currently offline lunchlady
Messages: 897
Registered: April 2005
Location: tennessee
Senior Member
This might be nitpicky. But I think there is a difference.

Calvin didn't distill the gospel to 5 points. The Remonstrants presented 5 points where they thought the current protestants (what you'd call today Calvinists) were wrong. The other protestants of that time (what you might call Calvinists, but Lutherans believed the same thing)to those 5 points, with their own 5 points. The five points weren't a summary but rather a rebuttal to the 5 points of the Remonstrants.

These were just like the creeds, they were fences put up to identify errors.

Lisa

[Updated on: Mon, 09 March 2009 18:55]

Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513673 is a reply to message #513650 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
Messages: 14916
Registered: April 2005
Location: Georgia
Senior Member

Chris, GA wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 18:36

I think it's important to remember that just because someone believes the BIBLE teaches Limited Atonement doesn't mean one is following after the ideas of men. I do not call myself a Calvinist or refer to points or anything else. I prefer to discuss God's word and the doctrines taught therein.


Acknowledged! Smile


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513704 is a reply to message #513673 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
Messages: 9592
Registered: April 2005
Location: Small Town New Hampshire
Senior Member
Okay, so this whole time we've been discussing limited vs unlimited (or whatever you term it)...I've been thinking that people who hold to a limited point of view 1) believe that Jesus only died for some people which implied to me that they 2) believe that Jesus only loves some people.

But, so far, no one has answered the parts of the poll related to "Jesus only loving some people".


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513724 is a reply to message #513704 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
Messages: 14916
Registered: April 2005
Location: Georgia
Senior Member

Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 21:20

Okay, so this whole time we've been discussing limited vs unlimited (or whatever you term it)...I've been thinking that people who hold to a limited point of view 1) believe that Jesus only died for some people which implied to me that they 2) believe that Jesus only loves some people.

But, so far, no one has answered the parts of the poll related to "Jesus only loving some people".


I was actually hesitant to answer the poll. I've never thought things in those terms, and answering the one I think is right (#1) makes it sound like I believe in universalism, which I don't. So I felt too boxed in...like Gallup Poll looking for a certain result. Very Happy I believe #1 is right, but not complete. I wouldn't want to state it without a caveat about not all people trusting in Him for salvation. Smile


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513727 is a reply to message #513724 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 21:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
Messages: 9592
Registered: April 2005
Location: Small Town New Hampshire
Senior Member
Okay, I updated the first option, and really meant that caveat for the whole poll, all options...


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513733 is a reply to message #513564 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 22:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sister P  is currently offline Sister P
Messages: 734
Registered: July 2006
Senior Member
This kind of goes along with something I'm looking for.... The Word does tell us that God "hated" someone... was it Esau?
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513739 is a reply to message #513733 ] Mon, 09 March 2009 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lori in Michigan
Messages: 175
Registered: August 2005
Senior Member
Quote:

This kind of goes along with something I'm looking for.... The Word does tell us that God "hated" someone... was it Esau?


Yep, it’s Esau that's “hated” (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13). I read something really interesting recently about the meaning of “hate” in Hebraic thought though. Apparently, to them it doesn’t mean “hate” as we tend to think of it, but rather, it carries the meaning of “to love less" or “to put in second place”. This is especially true when in Scripture “hate” is contrasted with “love” (as it is in Romans 9:13). A good example is found in the story of Leah and Rachel:

And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. Genesis 29:30-31

Since verse 30 says that Rachel was loved “more” than Leah, we see that the “hated” in v.31 carries the meaning of “loved less” or “put in second place”.

Learning this helped me to not only better understand “Esau have I hated” (cuz he was definitely put in second place to Jacob!) but also other verses like these…

“He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.” Proverbs 13:24

“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26

“No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” Matthew 6:24


With love in Christ Jesus, Lori

[Updated on: Mon, 09 March 2009 22:43]

Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #513819 is a reply to message #513739 ] Tue, 10 March 2009 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
Messages: 3217
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Lori in Michigan wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 22:41

Quote:

This kind of goes along with something I'm looking for.... The Word does tell us that God "hated" someone... was it Esau?


Yep, it’s Esau that's “hated” (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13). I read something really interesting recently about the meaning of “hate” in Hebraic thought though. Apparently, to them it doesn’t mean “hate” as we tend to think of it, but rather, it carries the meaning of “to love less" or “to put in second place”. This is especially true when in Scripture “hate” is


Do you have more information on that. When I look up the word for hate in Malachi (where it's speaking of Esau), I don't find anything in the definition that supports that thought.

The word for hate in the New Testament (regarding hating our fathers and mothers, for example) DOES have the connotation in some situation of "loving less".

The context in Malachi with Esau is that Jacob's descendants will remain, but Esau's have been wiped out and will not.


Chris, GA
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514092 is a reply to message #513819 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 00:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lori in Michigan
Messages: 175
Registered: August 2005
Senior Member
Chris, GA wrote on Tue, 10 March 2009 08:17

Lori in Michigan wrote on Mon, 09 March 2009 22:41

Quote:

This kind of goes along with something I'm looking for.... The Word does tell us that God "hated" someone... was it Esau?


Yep, it’s Esau that's “hated” (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13). I read something really interesting recently about the meaning of “hate” in Hebraic thought though. Apparently, to them it doesn’t mean “hate” as we tend to think of it, but rather, it carries the meaning of “to love less" or “to put in second place”. This is especially true when in Scripture “hate” is


Do you have more information on that. When I look up the word for hate in Malachi (where it's speaking of Esau), I don't find anything in the definition that supports that thought.

The word for hate in the New Testament (regarding hating our fathers and mothers, for example) DOES have the connotation in some situation of "loving less".

The context in Malachi with Esau is that Jacob's descendants will remain, but Esau's have been wiped out and will not.


Hi Chris, I don’t have a whole lot more info in regards to the OT usage except that the Hebrew word for hate used with Leah is the same as the one used for Esau.

I’m not sure a dictionary definition (especially if not written from the Hebrew perspective Wink ) makes that much difference though when one considers that Esau as the elder twin was to serve the younger (Genesis 25:23). Esau, though he was born first, was “put in second place” or “loved less” by God.

The Romans passage also seems to be in agreement with the Hebraic understanding:

It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated [put in second place or loved less]. Romans 9:12-13

Their understanding, at least to me, makes the most sense - especially when we consider that God is love.





Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514099 is a reply to message #513497 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lori in Michigan
Messages: 175
Registered: August 2005
Senior Member
May I ask a few questions of those who answered #3?

"I believe that Jesus only died for some people and loves the whole world"

If Jesus loves the whole world, why didn't He die for the whole world?

Why make the distinction that He loved the whole world, if He didn't love some of them enough to die for them?

What, to you, is the significance behind Him loving the whole world?

Lori... who's trying really hard to understand

[Updated on: Wed, 11 March 2009 00:29]

Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514104 is a reply to message #514099 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
Messages: 8308
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member

3. I believe that Jesus only died for some people and loves the whole world.
4. I believe that Jesus only died for some people and only loves some people.

Good question. In fact both 3 and 4 are very difficult to understand. 3 implies God was somehow powerless to save those He loves but that will be lost. 4 implies that God's love is imperfect and conditional. It is limiting to Him too.




[Updated on: Wed, 11 March 2009 00:44]


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514149 is a reply to message #514104 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris, GA  is currently offline Chris, GA
Messages: 3217
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Janice T. wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 00:43


3. I believe that Jesus only died for some people and loves the whole world.

# 3 implies God was somehow powerless to save those He loves but that will be lost.



I disagree. If you believe that God loves the whole world AND if you believe that some will not go to heaven then you believe that some He loves will not go to heaven.


Chris, GA
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514177 is a reply to message #513497 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EmilyKaye  is currently offline EmilyKaye
Messages: 87
Registered: November 2008
Location: Texas
Member
Quote:

3 implies God was somehow powerless to save those He loves but that will be lost.


Actually, that could be implied from every numbered point unless you're a universalist. I actually see that more from #1 than I do #3. If you believe that Jesus died for and loves the whole world, but the whole world won't be saved, then you can get that same implication out of stance #1.

Quote:

If Jesus loves the whole world, why didn't He die for the whole world?

If God saved the whole world then His justice would not be satisfied. People in stance #3 (generally) believe that there can't be anyone in hell for whom Christ died because He would have already paid for their sins.


God moves in a mysterious way. His wonders to perform; He plants his footsteps in the sea, and rides upon the storm. – William Cowper
Save the earth - it's the only planet with chocolate.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514199 is a reply to message #513497 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lunchlady  is currently offline lunchlady
Messages: 897
Registered: April 2005
Location: tennessee
Senior Member
I think there is an assumption about the definitions of love. You need to define love. Are you talking a general love or saving love. I think there is a general love towards all people, but a particular group that benefits from God's redeeming love.

Lisa
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514258 is a reply to message #514199 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 12:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
Messages: 8308
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
I'm talking about the kind of love I would have for my own child. The kind of love that would move me to stop them from bringing on to themselves a permanent injury and suffering by offering a salvation from that - Jesus. That's what kind of love I know God has towards everyone. Since I am made in God's image then I know that's the kind of love He has for us - even much, much more so.



[Updated on: Wed, 11 March 2009 12:39]


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514274 is a reply to message #514177 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
Messages: 8308
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
EmilyKaye wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 08:58

Quote:

3 implies God was somehow powerless to save those He loves but that will be lost.


Actually, that could be implied from every numbered point unless you're a universalist. I actually see that more from #1 than I do #3. If you believe that Jesus died for and loves the whole world, but the whole world won't be saved, then you can get that same implication out of stance #1.

Quote:

If Jesus loves the whole world, why didn't He die for the whole world?

If God saved the whole world then His justice would not be satisfied. People in stance #3 (generally) believe that there can't be anyone in hell for whom Christ died because He would have already paid for their sins.


It doesn't have to have a universalist conclusion. If salvation is available to all, #1, that would work. Rather #3 says it isn't.

If God made salvation available to all how does that thwart His justice? And to carry that further.... IF (and this is not my position-I'm a #1 Smile ) all were saved, because it was His will, how would that thwart His justice? Whatever He chooses to do IS justice - He is the definer of justice.






[Updated on: Wed, 11 March 2009 13:01]


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514291 is a reply to message #514274 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lunchlady  is currently offline lunchlady
Messages: 897
Registered: April 2005
Location: tennessee
Senior Member
Does the Bible teach that Jesus saves men or makes men savable? Does it teach that Jesus secures our salvation or just makes it possible?

Jesus our high priest.

He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Hebrews 9:12) Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. (Hebrews 9:15) So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time....

Lisa

[Updated on: Wed, 11 March 2009 13:21]

Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514301 is a reply to message #514291 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
Messages: 8308
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
It teaches that He makes salvation possible to all.

I've already posted many verses that say this. You are posting a verse that supports your view - and only that view. I still say that both are in the bible so both must be considered. That doesn't mean we, as humans, will totally understand how both can be equally valid.... just that they are.

[Updated on: Wed, 11 March 2009 13:33]


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514327 is a reply to message #513497 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 14:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EmilyKaye  is currently offline EmilyKaye
Messages: 87
Registered: November 2008
Location: Texas
Member
Quote:

It doesn't have to have a universalist conclusion. If salvation is available to all, #1, that would work. Rather #3 says it isn't.

What I meant by that was this - if God has provided salvation for all but not all are saved, that (to me) says that God is not powerful enough to truly save all He has provided for. Sort of like - He's powerful enough to make it available but not to carry it through. Thus the conclusion you come to in #3, I personally see clearer in #1. To me, #3 does not impede the power of God - it merely limits to whom it is displayed. I see His power more clearly in #3 because everyone whom He has paid for will be saved.
Quote:

If God made salvation available to all how does that thwart His justice?

I'm not saying that it does - I said if He saved them all, not if He made it available. As to your other question - I honestly don't know. I find the "L" to be the hardest point personally for me. I'm enjoying these discussions because I'm learning things and some things are becoming clearer for me. As to God's justice not being satisfied - I don't fully understand it, I was just stating what I've been told that people in the "limited" camp believe.


God moves in a mysterious way. His wonders to perform; He plants his footsteps in the sea, and rides upon the storm. – William Cowper
Save the earth - it's the only planet with chocolate.
Re: Bunny Trail from Limited/Unlimited discussions: Atoned for the whole world vs loves the whole wo [message #514478 is a reply to message #514327 ] Wed, 11 March 2009 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
~Janice  is currently offline ~Janice
Messages: 8308
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
EmilyKaye wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 13:12

Quote:

It doesn't have to have a universalist conclusion. If salvation is available to all, #1, that would work. Rather #3 says it isn't.

What I meant by that was this - if God has provided salvation for all but not all are saved, that (to me) says that God is not powerful enough to truly save all He has provided for. Sort of like - He's powerful enough to make it available but not to carry it through. Thus the conclusion you come to in #3, I personally see clearer in #1. To me, #3 does not impede the power of God - it merely limits to whom it is displayed. I see His power more clearly in #3 because everyone whom He has paid for will be saved.


I see your point (I think) but #1 sounds a lot more loving to me, and there is scripture to support it.

EmilyKaye wrote on Wed, 11 March 2009 13:12

Quote:

If God made salvation available to all how does that thwart His justice?

I'm not saying that it does - I said if He saved them all, not if He made it available. As to your other question - I honestly don't know. I find the "L" to be the hardest point personally for me. I'm enjoying these discussions because I'm learning things and some things are becoming clearer for me. As to God's justice not being satisfied - I don't fully understand it, I was just stating what I've been told that people in the "limited" camp believe.


I know you got that from the "limited" camp because I've heard it many times. It doesn't even make sense though. God is God. He can do whatever He wants. If He chose to save everyone(not just make salvation available to everyone) that would satisfy His justice because it's His! His justice isn't held to anyone's scrutiny.

Have you ever thought that maybe the "L" is the hardest for you because it isn't accurate? There are plenty of verses that support "un-L". Just wondering.

[Updated on: Wed, 11 March 2009 19:11]


TAKE TIME FOR FRIENDS!

Janice T. ~ CHF member since 09/97 ~
Mom to four - ds 28, dd 26, dd 24 and ds 21 - and wife to my sweet husband Richard.
Previous Topic:Is this the norm?
Next Topic:Article on neo-Calvinism in Time Magazine
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Mon Nov 20 15:48:19 EST 2017

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.06572 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

"Take All the Time You Need, But Hurry Up!" ... "One crisp September morning, many years ago, I snapped a picture of our son going off to second grade. He is perching on our porch scrubbed and grinning. As I relived this "Kodak" moment, a familiar sad feeling flooded my heart."

CHFWeb.com Interactive is Powered by: FUDforum 2.6.12.
Copyright ©2001-2004 FUD Forum Bulletin Board Software