Welcome to CHFWeb.com  The Christian Homeschool Fellowship on the WEB
Quick Start
[Support our Advertisers!] Getting Started on the Homeschooling BUS!
SheLaughed.com
CHFWeb Forum Area Articles of Significance on CHFWeb.com CHFWeb Mall --For all your resource needs! Library Area on CHFWeb.com Advertise Contact Us
CHFWeb Help!
[Support our Advertisers!] Contributions from our Members:   Beware of Pedestals ... There is a temptation to look at others who have more experience in certain areas and place them on pedestals, as well as seek to imitate them--but God doesn't want us to be molded into anyone else's image but conformed into the image of His Son! [Support our Advertisers!]
Home » CHFWeb Forum » HotTopics » Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll
Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403196] Tue, 29 April 2008 21:33 Go to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
Messages: 9599
Registered: April 2005
Location: Small Town New Hampshire
Senior Member

Church Leader Qualification Poll[ 28 vote(s) ]
1.I believe that church leaders should be qualified by their character and reputation 1 / 4%
2.I believe that church leaders should be qualified according to something else 0 / 0%
3.I believe that church leaders should be qualified according to the lists in Scripture 22 / 79%
4.I believe that local churches may set their own qualifications for leaders 0 / 0%
5.I don't believe that we should 'qualify' leaders -- that smacks of legalism to me 0 / 0%
6.I am unsure whether we should qualify leaders 0 / 0%
7.I think that qualifying leaders is wrong for some reason 0 / 0%
8.Some combo 2 / 7%
9.Something else 1 / 4%
10.I believe that the lists in Scripture applied to that time, but don't apply to today 0 / 0%
11.Qualifications? What qualifications? 1 / 4%
12.Oh, no, here we go again Wink 1 / 4%

Do you think that the lists in Scripture should determine whether a person is qualified to be a church leader -- such as a pastor, elder or deacon?

Here's a poll


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403243 is a reply to message #403196 ] Tue, 29 April 2008 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rose  is currently offline Rose
Messages: 453
Registered: April 2007
Location: Prince George, BC
Senior Member

I believe in upholding the lists in scriptures but I don't have a problem applying other standards as well. It's all in how one defines "above reproach." Personally, I don't know why people wouldn't insist on their leaders meeting the criteria set out. They are all completely logical to me. If any of the list items failed they would seem like good leaders to me just based on logic nevermind the fact that I believe that the lists are God's standards.


Rose - Official Bean Queen

wife of Joel
mom to Faith(5.5) and Paul(5)

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." - Jesus
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403263 is a reply to message #403196 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
Messages: 14921
Registered: April 2005
Location: Georgia
Senior Member

In one church we were a part of, the by-laws required a certain number of deacons based on church membership.

At a certain point, it was time to nominate new deacons, and before doing so, they compiled a page with the biblical lists, etc. People kept nominating people, and then finding that they didn't meet the qualifications for some reason, or people declined the nominations, etc.

In a business meeting, an elderly man stood up and said, "You know, we never had any trouble finding men to be deacons before we started using these new, long lists of qualifications!"

Yep, he really did.


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403276 is a reply to message #403196 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 04:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
Messages: 5476
Registered: April 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Senior Member
IMO, it kind of depends on what you mean by "leadership" and I think we've had this discussion before too - are the "leaders" only those in paid positions? Does it include music ministry? Does it include everyone who gets up the front for any reason? Does it just mean pastors and deacons? And elders?

Briefly, we apply the lists to those in "official" positions, such as the elders, deacons and ministers. Everyone else who gets up the front is also regarded as a leader, but we just have to sign a statement of conduct which says essentially that if we slip from the church standards of behaviour we have a duty to notify the official leadership or step down. I used to sing in church about once every two months, and I still had to sign - probably a good thing.

(I didn't vote, BTW, I'm tired of the polls crashing my browser.)


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403435 is a reply to message #403196 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 14:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sue C  is currently offline Sue C
Messages: 2616
Registered: April 2005
Location: midwest
Senior Member
I have issues with "having good children" or whatever that part is. I don't want cookie-cutter fake kids as pks, all show and not real. And I wouldn't want a heavy-handed dad as a deacon, the "you WILL obey me" in a bad way, iykwim.

Sue
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403499 is a reply to message #403196 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K in nc  is currently offline K in nc
Messages: 3157
Registered: January 2006
Senior Member

I think Sherry comes up with lots of interesting polls! Wink


Wife to the most wonderful man in the world for 27 years! Mom to the three most wonderful kids in the world! (well most of the time)
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403521 is a reply to message #403435 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lisa R.  is currently offline Lisa R.
Messages: 14921
Registered: April 2005
Location: Georgia
Senior Member

Sue C and Bekah wrote on Wed, 30 April 2008 14:12

I have issues with "having good children" or whatever that part is. I don't want cookie-cutter fake kids as pks, all show and not real. And I wouldn't want a heavy-handed dad as a deacon, the "you WILL obey me" in a bad way, iykwim.

Sue



I believe the verse is 1 Tim. 3:4
Quote:

He must manage his own household well and keep his children in control without losing his dignity


Do you mean you have issues with God including the instruction about managing his household well, or do you mean you don't want to have leaders whose family only appear to be well-managed from the outside, but really aren't?

Because, of course, the Bible doesn't instruct leaders to have "cookie cutter fake kids" nor for fathers to be heavy handed with them.


Blessings,
Lisa R.
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403554 is a reply to message #403521 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
Messages: 5476
Registered: April 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Senior Member
Lisa R. wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 08:42


I believe the verse is 1 Tim. 3:4
Quote:

He must manage his own household well and keep his children in control without losing his dignity



I do agree with this. I don't want someone in charge of a church who can't manage his own children! Nor do I want someone in charge of the church whose kids are running off the rails and who NEED their parents' full attention! (Two good reasons that I can think of for this ruling.)

However, I do wonder a bit how long the parents can be held responsible for the children's behaviour? My SIL for example, is now 30 years old and living a life which displeases her parents intensely and making choices which are not conducive to living a Godly life. Then again, she is not a Christian either. Should her parents be held responsible for her choices *now*? (She is unmarried but living independently.) This is a hypothetical of course, as neither of my in-laws are standing for church leadership positions, but just wondering...


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403592 is a reply to message #403554 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 22:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rose  is currently offline Rose
Messages: 453
Registered: April 2007
Location: Prince George, BC
Senior Member

elizabby wrote on Wed, 30 April 2008 17:12



However, I do wonder a bit how long the parents can be held responsible for the children's behaviour? My SIL for example, is now 30 years old and living a life which displeases her parents intensely and making choices which are not conducive to living a Godly life. Then again, she is not a Christian either. Should her parents be held responsible for her choices *now*? (She is unmarried but living independently.) This is a hypothetical of course, as neither of my in-laws are standing for church leadership positions, but just wondering...



For me it would depend on the specific situation. I've known elders and pastors that had adult children that were living horrible lives. I would be OK with this if they know recognized what they had done that hadn't worked and had corrected that within themselves. My concern is just that if people can't raise children up to be godly adult how can they raise up the believers in the church? I don't think that there's necessarily one right answer for this question.


Rose - Official Bean Queen

wife of Joel
mom to Faith(5.5) and Paul(5)

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." - Jesus
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403609 is a reply to message #403196 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 23:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charity  is currently offline Charity
Messages: 3518
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Titus 1:6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

1 Timothy 3:2-5 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife...4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5 (If anyone doesn't know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)


I've heard the line of reasoning before, Rose, but my thoughts usually are...

Even God didn't produce godly children. The first ones off the production line went bad in short order. Even while having first hand intimate knowledge and fellowship with God. And we certainly can't say that God isn't qualifed for leadership.

I'm not sure how we reconcile this. I tend to look at the context and think that it is talking about his household literally. Those in his home under his control. When children set up their own households and start their own families, they are no longer accountable to the father. They are no longer HIS family. Because of the leave and cleave principle, they now have their own families and belong to THAT family.

I'd like to do an original language study on the word "children" and see if it implies a certain age in the definition. I've never looked at it closely.

Charity
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403612 is a reply to message #403609 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
Messages: 9599
Registered: April 2005
Location: Small Town New Hampshire
Senior Member
We had a pastor who left our church to go to another church leave the pastorate eventually because of the actions of his child. God called him clearly back to another pastorate once his child was grown, even though the child is not following the Lord. We're still friends with them. Their new church is doing marvelously.

We had a number of discussions about it...at the time that it happened.

He stepped down at the time because his son needed his time even more than the fact that his son's actions "disqualified him".

I wonder: what about Eli's grown sons and the fact that God took Eli to task for their evil actions? Was it because he was also their 'employer' or 'overseer', as well as their father?

[And *how* did Hannah dare to leave a young one there?? We're reading through I Samuel in Sunday School...I don't know if I could have done what she did.]


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403614 is a reply to message #403592 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 23:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Elizabby  is currently offline Elizabby
Messages: 5476
Registered: April 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Senior Member
RoseM wrote on Thu, 01 May 2008 12:18

elizabby wrote on Wed, 30 April 2008 17:12



However, I do wonder a bit how long the parents can be held responsible for the children's behaviour? My SIL for example, is now 30 years old and living a life which displeases her parents intensely and making choices which are not conducive to living a Godly life. Then again, she is not a Christian either. Should her parents be held responsible for her choices *now*? (She is unmarried but living independently.) This is a hypothetical of course, as neither of my in-laws are standing for church leadership positions, but just wondering...



For me it would depend on the specific situation. I've known elders and pastors that had adult children that were living horrible lives. I would be OK with this if they know recognized what they had done that hadn't worked and had corrected that within themselves.


This bold part is what I am talking about. So do you think that any adult child who chooses not to be a Christian, that this is necessarily the fault of the parents in their upbringing? Regardless of age?

To take it in the reverse direction - I think my mother was a very good mother and did pretty much everything right. Any social failings I have now are my fault not hers! But when I was in my early 20s, I decided to become a Christian, much to her disappointment. She still mourns this, and wishes I would return to the Buddhism of my youth, as she raised me. But does my choice reflect that her upbringing "didn't work"?


Your sister in Christ,

Elizabby

Evie is six, Zoe is four, and Benji is two!

Not online as much these days, contact me through email or my blog if you want to talk to me!
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403621 is a reply to message #403196 ] Wed, 30 April 2008 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charity  is currently offline Charity
Messages: 3518
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Eli was spiritually responsible for ALL the priests behavior as the high priest. He would have been held accountable even if there had been no blood relation.

Charity
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403664 is a reply to message #403592 ] Thu, 01 May 2008 07:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Barbara K (NC)
Messages: 1864
Registered: April 2005
Location: North Carolina
Senior Member
RoseM wrote on Wed, 30 April 2008 22:18



I would be OK with this if they know recognized what they had done that hadn't worked and had corrected that within themselves. My concern is just that if people can't raise children up to be godly adult how can they raise up the believers in the church? I don't think that there's necessarily one right answer for this question.





The way this is phrased sounds almost like OUR work as parents is what saves our children. Not only are my "works of righteousness" insufficient to save ME, they are definitely insufficient to save my children!

[Updated on: Thu, 01 May 2008 07:58]


Barbara K (NC)

"And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." 2 Cor 9:8


Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403752 is a reply to message #403614 ] Thu, 01 May 2008 11:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rose  is currently offline Rose
Messages: 453
Registered: April 2007
Location: Prince George, BC
Senior Member

elizabby wrote on Wed, 30 April 2008 20:21



To take it in the reverse direction - I think my mother was a very good mother and did pretty much everything right. Any social failings I have now are my fault not hers! But when I was in my early 20s, I decided to become a Christian, much to her disappointment. She still mourns this, and wishes I would return to the Buddhism of my youth, as she raised me. But does my choice reflect that her upbringing "didn't work"?



I'm not sure the reverse direction example is an adequate corrolory. God, as your heavenly father, led you toward something that was better then what your mother had laid out for you.

Maybe Charity is right on this issue. Maybe it does just apply to those that are in the household of the leader. I just struggle to accept a leaders that has adult children that are grossly dysfunctional. For example, there was an elder at a previous church that I attended that had a young adult daughter that was working as an escort and was drug addicted and whose older brothers were alcoholics. It seems in this situation that there were more problems then just that the elder's children simply chose not to follow Christ. It's seems counter-logical to not at least consider adult children in choosing leaders and to not ask some hard questions in these situations.


Rose - Official Bean Queen

wife of Joel
mom to Faith(5.5) and Paul(5)

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." - Jesus
Re: Qualifications for Church Leadership Poll [message #403826 is a reply to message #403196 ] Thu, 01 May 2008 14:01 Go to previous message
Charity  is currently offline Charity
Messages: 3518
Registered: April 2005
Senior Member
Rose - I think your concerns are valid. I've done some preliminary research on the greek word used for children (teknon) and will report findings once I've had a chance to be thorough.

I know this is probably unfair, but if someone had a daughter who was really loose, I'd almost be worried that she had been misused growing up. Not something to generalize about, but the concern would be there.

I think there's a difference between a child who does well in the home growing up, leaves the home and then decides to walk away from the Lord, but is otherwise a seemingly emotionally healthy individual who is a productive citizen and a good parent/spouse. I would think that they had made a decision to leave their faith, but had been well-raised. This should not be held against an elder. They did not fail in their job to raise the child in the Lord. Raising a child in a Christian home is not a iron-clad guarantee that your child will always be in the faith. However, someone who was wild and rebellious while under their parent's roof and then went on to be completely dysfunctional as an adult...then yes, I would probably call the parenting they received into question.



Charity
Previous Topic:Our hearts are wicked---or are they?
Next Topic:Headcoverings
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Wed Feb 21 21:51:44 EST 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.08852 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Beware of Pedestals ... There is a temptation to look at others who have more experience in certain areas and place them on pedestals, as well as seek to imitate them--but God doesn't want us to be molded into anyone else's image but conformed into the image of His Son!

CHFWeb.com Interactive is Powered by: FUDforum 2.6.12.
Copyright ©2001-2004 FUD Forum Bulletin Board Software