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Home » CHFWeb Libraries » Titus Two Library » Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it...  (5) 1 Vote(s)
Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299431] Sun, 01 July 2007 23:57 Go to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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...if your (assuming you are a homeschooling dw) dh came home and told you that you had to stop homeschooling and the kids had to go to school?

Any stories about how it went? How God worked? Surprising things that happened? Compromises that were made? What you learned? Did he change his mind? Or not?

It seems to relate to our oft-discussed ideas about submission, too...for a dw who might be an adamant homeschooler, it probably takes as much submission to do that as it took Sarah to go into the harem.


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299488 is a reply to message #299431 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
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First of all I would need to know why he felt that I needed to do that. If there were any ways I could address and change any needs he saw, that would be my MAJOR priority. But if he really had no reasons I guess I would pray.

I would begin fasting and praying and (like Esther) I would contact my friends and church family and ask them to fast and pray as well. I have to confess that that would be a hard issue for me but I would be trusting the Lord for God to change my husband's heart. If my husband's heart was hard before the Lord, I'm not sure if I would be able to submit on that one because I would be feeling like I would be violating many scriptural principles. A while back I would have submitted but I'm not so sure I could anymore.


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299492 is a reply to message #299431 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tam In Az  is currently offline Tam In Az
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Same as Kate. With me, homeschooling was one of the Non-negotiable issues, along w/having as many dc as the Lord blessed that Had to be agreed to before marrying either of my beloveds.


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"
Galatians 5:21-23
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299495 is a reply to message #299488 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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Kate -- that's where it gets hard...

What if this going back to work is because of financial difficulty that is because of decisions that he made? And the family is bearing the brunt of the repercussions of those decisions? And what if he could go work a second job, but said he could not handle the stress? And told the kids they were going to school and you that you were going to work?

[This is a real situation, just not mine. And I've seen it several times in my 3-D life.]

Is the fasting and praying so that God will work on his heart? Or so God will come up with a different scenario that doesn't affect the life of the dw and dc's as much? Is it selfish not to want to *go* outside the home to work?

Also, is asking people outside the family to fast and pray a form of gossip, when it is about one's dh?

I guess (just extending the discussion) that it is a hard scenario when the dw is convicted (actually convicted) that homeschooling is God's will for them or God's will for everyone...and then dh changes horses in the middle of the stream.

I have seen that what makes it harder sometimes is 1) the wide variety of counselling about wifely submission and 2) the knee-jerk reaction in the homeschooling community and some churches when dw's go out to work. *Especially* if it's not her idea, and she's only doing it out of submission.

And, generalizing again, back to Sarah --> it must've not been her preference to go to the harem...*why* did she do it?? I've seen several situations in my 3-D life, unrelated to homeschooling lately, where women did something out of submission that I *know* they must've kicked against in their spirits.

[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 10:54]


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299497 is a reply to message #299492 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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Tam -- are you saying that you told your dhs that you would never stop homeschooling?

What if your dh lost his mind (seemingly), came home and changed horses in mid-stream?


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299588 is a reply to message #299497 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tam In Az  is currently offline Tam In Az
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Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 08:55

Tam -- are you saying that you told your dhs that you would never stop homeschooling?

What if your dh lost his mind (seemingly), came home and changed horses in mid-stream?

Homeschooling only, all the way was one of my pre-requisites for even considering marraige along w/as many dc as the Lord would bless.

It would put me in a tough place...I'd pretty much consider it marital fraud when it is something Agreed upon before marraige, after much discussion of possible future scenarios and the person you're marrying Knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is Critical to the agreement to marry. This is a case I most likely would Not submit to, I'd be looking for every other possible way to reach a compromise...women can work and also homeschool. If young dc were involved then it gets even more complicated.

Me personally, no matter how much I "loved" someone, I wouldn't marry them if they couldn't/wouldn't agree to the specifics OR I couldn't agree to theirs (raising the dc the same way Very Happy ).

[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 13:38]


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"
Galatians 5:21-23
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299613 is a reply to message #299431 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
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Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 09:53

Kate -- that's where it gets hard...

What if this going back to work is because of financial difficulty that is because of decisions that he made? And the family is bearing the brunt of the repercussions of those decisions? And what if he could go work a second job, but said he could not handle the stress? And told the kids they were going to school and you that you were going to work?

[This is a real situation, just not mine. And I've seen it several times in my 3-D life.]

Then I would come up with jobs I could do AT HOME that would bring in extra money. I would also insist that we seek financial counselling from a godly financial counsellor to find out where we need to make drastic changes in our lives. I would insist that we prayerfully seek any and every other alternative that would not force us to put our children at risk and cause a violation of convictions before the Lord. More often than not there ARE other alternatives.

Quote:

Is the fasting and praying so that God will work on his heart? Or so God will come up with a different scenario that doesn't affect the life of the dw and dc's as much?

BOTH!

Quote:

Is it selfish not to want to *go* outside the home to work?

I see this as my God-given responsibility and purpose so how can it be selfish?

Quote:

Also, is asking people outside the family to fast and pray a form of gossip, when it is about one's dh?

Well, the decision a husband makes in this regard is public knowledge. I am not saying anything my husband isn't declaring other than to pray for God's intervention in our decision that won't cause me to violate what I believe is my biblical mandate. I don't see this as gossip.

Quote:

I guess (just extending the discussion) that it is a hard scenario when the dw is convicted (actually convicted) that homeschooling is God's will for them or God's will for everyone...and then dh changes horses in the middle of the stream.

I have seen that what makes it harder sometimes is 1) the wide variety of counselling about wifely submission and 2) the knee-jerk reaction in the homeschooling community and some churches when dw's go out to work. *Especially* if it's not her idea, and she's only doing it out of submission.

And, generalizing again, back to Sarah --> it must've not been her preference to go to the harem...*why* did she do it?? I've seen several situations in my 3-D life, unrelated to homeschooling lately, where women did something out of submission that I *know* they must've kicked against in their spirits.

So much of this comes down to (as Tam mentioned) REALLY knowing your husband beforehand and setting down the COMPLETELY non-negotiables - things upon which you cannot compromise. And if, after we were married, my husband had a spiritual breakdown and went back on everything he claimed he held to as absolute truth, I would place my life in God's hands and trust for HIM to work out a way for me to submit to my husband without in anyway compromising my understanding of biblical obedience.


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299614 is a reply to message #299613 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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Kate -- okay, just checking my understanding again:

How does a person in submission to another person *insist* on anything?


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299616 is a reply to message #299588 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Tam In Az wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 10:35


It would put me in a tough place...I'd pretty much consider it marital fraud when it is something Agreed upon before marraige, after much discussion of possible future scenarios and the person you're marrying Knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is Critical to the agreement to marry.




Hum... marital fraud. Those are pretty strong words and could be a pretty volatile accusation. What would you do when you think, are absolutely convinced, this has happened? (Probably a bunny trail/huge can of worms/hot topic itself in there Smile)

[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 14:59]


Teri in AZ

God is still on the Throne.
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299617 is a reply to message #299613 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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>So much of this comes down to (as Tam mentioned) REALLY knowing your husband beforehand and setting down the COMPLETELY non-negotiables - things upon which you cannot compromise.<

Dear Kate:

I agree that that certainly is a way to head off a lot of controversy in a marriage...and probably this thread might be instructive to some of the older teens.

But many people did not know that they'd end up homeschooling, for example. Or they started out in the working world and only later came home. So they couldn't discuss later convictions as non-negotiables *before* the marriage.

>And if, after we were married, my husband had a spiritual breakdown and went back on everything he claimed he held to as absolute truth<

I have seen that happen; haven't you all?

> I would place my life in God's hands and trust for HIM to work out a way for me to submit to my husband without in anyway compromising my understanding of biblical obedience.<

I've seen the wife of someone in ministry go into the public arena to work *solely* and only because her dh insisted that she do it, even though her conviction was that she should be home, her inclination was home, and she felt 'called' to be home.

She was convicted about it to the point that she would go to jail if someone outside the family insisted that she go to work. But because she was in a position of biblical submission to her dh, she went.

I think I see what you are say: just give it to God and let Him work it out the way He wishes; He might surprise us.

But where do complete non-negotiables and insistence come into the picture, regarding wifely submission? That's the part I guess I still just don't get (because it would never occur to me to suggest it).

Is there a place for a wife to say: I can't [lie on taxes, watch p*rn, accommodate your sin, go out to work] because it would be biblically wrong [tell the truth, put no evil thing before one's eye, make no place for sin, Proverbs 31 and Titus Two] and I'm going to *insist* that I can't do that?


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299650 is a reply to message #299495 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 16:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 09:53

What if this going back to work is because of financial difficulty that is because of decisions that he made? And the family is bearing the brunt of the repercussions of those decisions? And what if he could go work a second job, but said he could not handle the stress? And told the kids they were going to school and you that you were going to work?


Boy, you sure ask easy questions, Sherry, .... NOT!!!! Razz

Sue
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299651 is a reply to message #299614 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 13:49

Kate -- okay, just checking my understanding again:

How does a person in submission to another person *insist* on anything?


My question, too, Sherry.

Sue
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299654 is a reply to message #299617 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 16:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
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Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 14:00


Is there a place for a wife to say: I can't [lie on taxes, watch p*rn, accommodate your sin, go out to work] because it would be biblically wrong [tell the truth, put no evil thing before one's eye, make no place for sin, Proverbs 31 and Titus Two] and I'm going to *insist* that I can't do that?

I think there IS a place (and please know it should be an extreme situation) where a wife says to her husband, "Sweetheart, I love you with all my heart and I firmly believe that my role is to honor and submit to your authority in our home. However, I believe what you are asking me to do is sin against a direct command from God for my life and I'm sorry but I must obey God."

Too often we women take this as a first step in dealing with conflict. And it must be the very last recourse when communication, counsel, fasting and prayer and more communication have not moved the husband's heart toward where he needs to be with God. This is NOT a step to be taken lightly and in a godly marriage it should never have to come at all since there should (almost) never be a decision that comes down to the husband saying, "because I said so" without regard to the wife's strong biblical convictions and scriptural guidance and rule.

A man who is telling his wife that she must directly violate God's purpose and call for her life in order to relieve financial stress and to place their children into the care of the state against her biblical conviction is NOT loving his wife as Christ loved the church.

NOW...if a couple came to Christ after they were married and the wife kind of brow beat her husband into letting her homeschool or manipulated him into having her stay home (when it was really more of a desire rather than a strong biblical conviction as absolutely sinful to do otherwise) things would be quite different and my counsel would be TOTALLY different. But since your original question was "what if *I* had this happen", I answered it from my own personal beliefs, understanding of scripture, our family's biblical convictions and the place that Kevin and I had come to even before we were engaged. He would have to have a complete mental and spiritual breakdown for him to come home and tell me I had to go to work and the kids had to go to institutional school - and there would be many warning signs before it got to this point.

Many families I know homeschool because they see it as a better choice and not because of a deeply held biblical conviction. I would counsel this woman VERY differently - based on where their family was, where their marriage was and where SHE was in her walk with God. Many women I know stay home because of a desire to raise their children until the kids are in school; they do not have a strong scriptural concept of commands for the wife to be home - I would counsel this woman VERY differently as well. I do not hold to the idea that EVERY Christian woman must homeschool or that she MUST stay home from work. It is my very strong (part of my identity in Christ, you might say) conviction that this is what the scriptures call ME to and I cannot violate that. BUT I also know that God can do anything! And He knows my absolute committment to submitting to my husband and I absolutely believe He would give me a way to submit to my husband without causing me to sin.


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299658 is a reply to message #299651 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
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Sue C and Bekah wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 15:25

Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 13:49

Kate -- okay, just checking my understanding again:

How does a person in submission to another person *insist* on anything?


My question, too, Sherry.

Sue


Well, let me ask you, how does a person who is loving his wife as Christ loved the church in being willing to lay down his life for her tell her she must sin against God in order to do what he says to do?

If my husband is telling me to commit what I believe is sin, I believe that I can insist that we seek counsel and if he refuses then I will go to the pastor(s) alone for counsel. But insisting that we seek help and alternative options puts me in a place where I am seeking to submit yet to not violate my conscience.


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299663 is a reply to message #299658 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 16:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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So, I think I hear you saying that the submission of wife to husband is rooted in mutual submission, in Christ.

I understand what you are saying -- different people are in different scenarios to do with what their conviction is...[or even what they think a conviction *is*...is it a preference, or something you would go to jail for, for example?]

Thanks for taking the time to interact with me about this; I appreciate it so much.

[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2007 16:51]


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299667 is a reply to message #299663 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
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Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 15:49

So, I think I hear you saying that the submission of wife to husband is rooted in mutual submission, in Christ.

Hmmm....*close*. If my husband isn't submitting to the Lord in his life and tells me to do something that is irritating but not causing me to sin (like we're cutting off internet access), I submit even if he is in rebellion to God in every area of his life. The ONLY time I can not submit is if he is telling me to do something that is in direct violation to God's Word.


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299671 is a reply to message #299667 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 17:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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>The ONLY time I can not submit is if he is telling me to do something that is in direct violation to God's Word.<

Dear Kate:

Ahhh...so the hot topic part is probably: is "not homeschooling" or "working outside the house" in direct violation to God's Word?

Okay, I getcha. You might see that as a sin or as a sin for yourself.

Here's, again, where I get unclear: Wouldn't Sarah think it was a sin to leave her house and go to the harem? Or is it only sin if she has extra-marital relations with the Pharaoh?

I read that originally and thought: she did the wrong thing by leaving. Then I read the section in the NT that said that we are to be like Sarah. So I revised my thinking.

But then I saw several cases of wives in my 3-D life submitting to things that were Biblically wrong, citing 'having a gentle spirit', etc.

I've just ended up entirely unclear.

It makes sense to me to "not submit, in a submissive way" if my dear sweet dh were telling me to do something that is in direction violation to God's Word.


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299683 is a reply to message #299488 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kate Megill wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 09:45

I would contact my friends and church family and ask them to fast and pray as well.


Really? Do you not think of this as a respect issue? With all the problems we have had, I would not address anything publicly because it would be disrespectful.

For me, our joint decision to home school would be a boundary issue. If a husband and wife have always been committed to home schooling, it is not up to either parent to change the rules in the middle of the game. If a man has made some grave financial errors and decides his wife has to work, then I don't think there is any discussion as to WHO has to go register the children, make the lunches, make sure they get to school and get homework done every day. HE does. Too many men get away with arbitrary decisions and then expecting everyone else to facilitate his changes. If he thinks taking on a second job is too stressful, then he can just see how stressful it will be for his wife when she has to do all that plus work.

I agree with Tam in AZ that it would be marital fraud if the decisions were made before marriage.

Believe me, I know a little something about marital fraud.


hurtingwife
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299686 is a reply to message #299671 ] Mon, 02 July 2007 17:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Sherry in NH wrote on Mon, 02 July 2007 16:22

>The ONLY time I can not submit is if he is telling me to do something that is in direct violation to God's Word.<

Dear Kate:

Ahhh...so the hot topic part is probably: is "not homeschooling" or "working outside the house" in direct violation to God's Word?

Okay, I getcha. You might see that as a sin or as a sin for yourself.

Here's, again, where I get unclear: Wouldn't Sarah think it was a sin to leave her house and go to the harem? Or is it only sin if she has extra-marital relations with the Pharaoh?

I read that originally and thought: she did the wrong thing by leaving. Then I read the section in the NT that said that we are to be like Sarah. So I revised my thinking.

But then I saw several cases of wives in my 3-D life submitting to things that were Biblically wrong, citing 'having a gentle spirit', etc.

I've just ended up entirely unclear.

It makes sense to me to "not submit, in a submissive way" if my dear sweet dh were telling me to do something that is in direction violation to God's Word.

Ah, Sarah! Bless her heart!! We are admonished to be like Sarah, NOT in going to live in another man's household, but in NOT BEING FRIGHTENED BY ANY FEAR (not yelling, just emphasizing! Wink). Of course remember that all the things she did were prior to the giving of the law. She knew submission was in the equation because it was given to Eve in the garden (and I'm assuming it was passed down) but with multiple wives/concubines being part of the local standard of living I'm not sure how solid she was on the "one man one woman" idea of marriage.

I see this as when our husbands make really STUPID choices (like plunging us into financial ruin or quitting a job or total isolation from friends and family, etc.), we can be like Sarah and not be frightened by any fear as we submit knowing that God will protect us even in the middle of His discipline on our husbands.

Often I think Christian women really don't understand our place as a helpmate to our husbands. We are NOT called to silently submit to every whim that comes down the pike. We are to speak out and be our husband's #1 counsel! Sometimes it means a firm, "Hey wait a minute...are you SERIOUSLY thinking of doing that? I have some MAJOR problems with that and we really need to do a lot of discussing here." We are not children - we are partners with a voice and an obligation to give our input. We can do that with a submissive heart and STILL be firm and vocal or we can stand in the way of our husband's growth by keeping silent when God wanted us to share insights that He might very well have given to us!

Does that make sense? I'm thinking about a chicken recipe of Tam in AZ's that I might make tonight so I'm not quite connected with my clarity! Rolling Eyes Shocked Laughing


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299937 is a reply to message #299686 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 11:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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>Often I think Christian women really don't understand our place as a helpmate to our husbands. We are NOT called to silently submit to every whim that comes down the pike. We are to speak out and be our husband's #1 counsel! Sometimes it means a firm, "Hey wait a minute...are you SERIOUSLY thinking of doing that? I have some MAJOR problems with that and we really need to do a lot of discussing here." We are not children - we are partners with a voice and an obligation to give our input. We can do that with a submissive heart and STILL be firm and vocal or we can stand in the way of our husband's growth by keeping silent when God wanted us to share insights that He might very well have given to us!

Does that make sense?<

Dear Kate:

It makes *total* sense to me <g>...but it doesn't seem to fit with some of the Titus Two counsel, over the past few years.

It's the firmness that is surprising to me.

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 11:25]


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299951 is a reply to message #299937 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Sherry in NH wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 10:24

>Often I think Christian women really don't understand our place as a helpmate to our husbands. We are NOT called to silently submit to every whim that comes down the pike. We are to speak out and be our husband's #1 counsel! Sometimes it means a firm, "Hey wait a minute...are you SERIOUSLY thinking of doing that? I have some MAJOR problems with that and we really need to do a lot of discussing here." We are not children - we are partners with a voice and an obligation to give our input. We can do that with a submissive heart and STILL be firm and vocal or we can stand in the way of our husband's growth by keeping silent when God wanted us to share insights that He might very well have given to us!

Does that make sense?<

Dear Kate:

It makes *total* sense to me <g>...but it doesn't seem to fit with some of the Titus Two counsel, over the past few years.

It's the firmness that is surprising to me.

Well, I guess I'm a very forthright and frank person, so when I speak to my husband, I share my views (and concerns) with equal forthrightness. It is one of the things Kevin values in me. HOWEVER, I do let him know that after all my concerns are shared and we've discussed all aspects of a topic, that if we cannot come to agreement I will fully submit and support his final decision, and do it with JOY.

If God gave my husband a frank and open person, I shouldn't turn into a quiet (for me it would be mousey/mealy-mouthed) person when I speak with my husband. There is a MAJOR difference between being bossy in my forthrightness and being honest, open and yes, even firm, BUT still having a submissive spirit and heart. I guess I can say anything I want to Kevin because he knows that my heart is always desiring to submit to his direction and final authority. He doesn't have to feel threatened when I'm firmly sharing my concerns because I have never given him cause to distrust my loyalty or submission.

If I were constantly undermining his authority in the home or manipulating him to try and get my own way, things would be very different and my forthrightness would be seen as one more ploy to get my own way. BUT that is not who we are or what our marriage is so I can be absolutely free to be who God created me to be so long as I am always surrendered to the Spirit and walking in deference to Kevin's final authority.

I don't think this is any different from anything I've ever said here over the years. BUT it might be slightly different from Titus Two ideas you've heard elsewhere. I think it fits right in with my position as a co-heir with my husband in the Kingdom of God.

[Updated on: Tue, 03 July 2007 11:55]


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299962 is a reply to message #299686 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sherry in NH  is currently offline Sherry in NH
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Kate -- I'm digging into this again.

I can't tell you the number of times that people have quoted this passage, in relation to covering up dh's sins, putting up with abuse of them or the kids, doing what they are convicted not to do only because he insists, etc.

The context of I Peter 3 is 'when your own husband obeys not the word':

>1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.

1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

1Pe 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:

1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.

1Pe 3:13 And who [is] he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

1Pe 3:17 For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.<


In Jesus

Sherry from NH
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #299969 is a reply to message #299951 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 12:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sue C  is currently offline Sue C
Messages: 2616
Registered: April 2005
Location: midwest
Senior Member
Kate,

Where did you learn this stuff? Can you recommend any books or certain speakers?

Where *do* people learn the "right" way of submission? Sherry brought up the fact that your submission ideas are different from what she sees around her and maybe from what is being taught around her.

Is it all subjective, depending on our husbands? Some dhs would not be as secure as yours is re: your style of communicating, submitting, etc.

Thanks. Smile

Sue
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #300039 is a reply to message #299962 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
Messages: 6501
Registered: April 2005
Location: NW rural Illinois
Senior Member

Sherry in NH wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 11:33

Kate -- I'm digging into this again.

I can't tell you the number of times that people have quoted this passage, in relation to covering up dh's sins, putting up with abuse of them or the kids, doing what they are convicted not to do only because he insists, etc.

The context of I Peter 3 is 'when your own husband obeys not the word':

>1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.

1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

1Pe 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Dear Sherry,

My understanding of this passage is that I am to submit to my husband and if he is not walking in obedience it will not be my "many words" that will draw him back to the Lord, it will be my chaste (pure) and respectful behavior; my OWN walking in obedience to the Lord and submitting to my husband, even when he is not being wise or even caring. As Kevin says, "our strategy is not to talk him into obedience but to live him into obedience."

Again, Sarah, along with the holy women of old, were praised because of their trusting God, regardless of the folly of their husbands. I can submit (be in subjection to) my husband without fear because GOD is the One who is ultimately in control - and not my husband (no matter if he thinks he is or not). As I submit to my husband, I do it as an act of submission and surrender to God.

I DO agree that (in almost all cases) we are not to go around exposing our husband's sins. Now, if a husband is physically or sexually abusing a child (or me), I would take it to the authorities for protection for the children. If my husband were committing adultery and wouldn't repent, I would go to the pastor to try and work reconciliation into his life, allowing the pastor to follow through however he felt best. In the OT I would have brought it before the elders who would have stoned him, I think taking it to the pastor is a MUCH better choice for me! Since I believe it is MY responsibility (as well as my husband's) to protect my children, I would speak up if he was physically harming them on purpose. But I would merely be going to the authority over my husband for that protection.

Please don't get me wrong, I VERY STRONGLY believe in submission to our husbands. I believe that only rare and extreme situations call for us to "obey God rather than man" but that even in those cases, God will almost always work to give us a way that we can obey God while still obeying our husbands (it just will probably take lots of prayer and creativity) - it should be an 'almost never happens' situation for a line to be drawn in the sand, so to speak.

I also believe firmly that our sharing of our concerns in most other areas of our everyday lives where there is disagreement should always be done with respect and as a godly appeal.

BUT I do believe that we CAN speak our thoughts with respect and love, not being bossy or manipulative or demanding. Being submissive (even in light of 1 Peter 3) does not mean being silent. Otherwise, it would mean we could never speak in our marriages at all and THAT doesn't make sense! And IF we can speak in some areas, we need to study this passage to find out what the "without a word" means. And I think it refers to not trying to talk our husbands into our way of thinking but living out reverence for God and respect for our husbands will have affects on our husbands' lives in ways we can never imagine.

Does this make any sense at all?


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #300043 is a reply to message #299969 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
Messages: 6501
Registered: April 2005
Location: NW rural Illinois
Senior Member

Sue C and Bekah wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 11:48

Kate,

Where did you learn this stuff? Can you recommend any books or certain speakers?

Where *do* people learn the "right" way of submission? Sherry brought up the fact that your submission ideas are different from what she sees around her and maybe from what is being taught around her.

Is it all subjective, depending on our husbands? Some dhs would not be as secure as yours is re: your style of communicating, submitting, etc.

Thanks. Smile

Sue

I think one thing is important to understand. I am NOT saying we should go around bossing or bullying our husbands. Nor should we go around saying, "this is IT, it's MY way or the highway!" I don't think my "style" of communicating with Kevin is in any way disrespectful (and I know Kevin doesn't see it as such). I don't push him, I appeal; I don't say, "Look buster, sit down and talk this out with me right now!" I say, "I have some serious concerns that I need to discuss with you, can we sit down now and talk about this or if not now, can you give me a time when we CAN discuss it very soon?"

Again, this entire thread has gone from looking at a situation that someone may feel is an area of disobedience before the Lord to general submission. I am NOT about bossing my husband - in any regard. But neither do I sit around and say, "Oh that's OK dear, selling our house and living in the swamp is fine with me." If he tells me, "Look, I've decided on the swamp and there is to be NO discussion on it!" then I quietly pack my bags for a move to the swamp while on my knees for God's protection.

Kevin and I have discussed MUCH over the years how I speak to him so that I can still be the forthright person I am yet still be speaking with respect and honor. So much of what I've learned has not been through books or speakers, it has been through a deep study of the Word and deep discussion of it with my husband. Afterall, I need to know what KEVIN sees as submissive speech, not Tom Thumb next door. And it is important to remember that honest and open speech does NOT equal bossy or demanding. It is all about the heart, because whatever is in your heart will eventually come out of your mouth. If honor and submission is in your heart, your words will echo that to your husband. If demandingness and bossiness is in your heart, no matter how "submissive sounding" your words are, they will still come across as dishonoring to your husband.


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #300055 is a reply to message #300043 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sue C  is currently offline Sue C
Messages: 2616
Registered: April 2005
Location: midwest
Senior Member
Very helpful, Kate.

Kate Megill wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 14:37

I don't think my "style" of communicating with Kevin is in any way disrespectful (and I know Kevin doesn't see it as such)... Kevin and I have discussed MUCH over the years how I speak to him so that I can still be the forthright person I am yet still be speaking with respect and honor. So much of what I've learned has not been through books or speakers, it has been through a deep study of the Word and deep discussion of it with my husband. Afterall, I need to know what KEVIN sees as submissive speech, not Tom Thumb next door.


I can see some men as seeing you as being unsubmissive by being forthright. I just think there must be SOME standard that can be taught. Otherwise, you run into stuff like Sherry has been running into where the dh thinks things should be one way and the wife is to submit, etc.

Sue
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #300057 is a reply to message #300039 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sue C  is currently offline Sue C
Messages: 2616
Registered: April 2005
Location: midwest
Senior Member
Kate Megill wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 14:21

BUT I do believe that we CAN speak our thoughts with respect and love, not being bossy or manipulative or demanding. Being submissive (even in light of 1 Peter 3) does not mean being silent. Otherwise, it would mean we could never speak in our marriages at all and THAT doesn't make sense!


But many things of the Christian walk "don't make sense." It's hard to know when to use common sense and when to know it's the Holy Spirit leading down a "senseless" road.

Sue
Re: Bunny Trail: How did you/are you/would you handle it... [message #300067 is a reply to message #300057 ] Tue, 03 July 2007 16:40 Go to previous message
Kate Megill  is currently offline Kate Megill
Messages: 6501
Registered: April 2005
Location: NW rural Illinois
Senior Member

Sue C and Bekah wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 14:57

Kate Megill wrote on Tue, 03 July 2007 14:21

BUT I do believe that we CAN speak our thoughts with respect and love, not being bossy or manipulative or demanding. Being submissive (even in light of 1 Peter 3) does not mean being silent. Otherwise, it would mean we could never speak in our marriages at all and THAT doesn't make sense!


But many things of the Christian walk "don't make sense." It's hard to know when to use common sense and when to know it's the Holy Spirit leading down a "senseless" road.

Sue


Well, there is a difference between God saying something in the Word that goes against 'the grain' of what we think is common sense but is in actuality against the grain of the flesh. When the normal literal interpretation of the verse does not line up with the rest of scripture (where wives are told to ask questions of their husbands at home, so we are TOLD that our marriages are not to be lived with us as mute) then we need to look at how we are interpreting a verse/passage and make sure we allow all of scripture to give us insight into what our interpretation of this one passage/verse should be.

Quote:

I can see some men as seeing you as being unsubmissive by being forthright. I just think there must be SOME standard that can be taught. Otherwise, you run into stuff like Sherry has been running into where the dh thinks things should be one way and the wife is to submit, etc.

Again, for the most part these are things that should be worked out BEFORE the marriage takes place. However, sometimes that doesn't happen. In which case I would try and discuss these things with my husband, if he refused to allow me ever to discuss any issue of disagreement with him, I would seriously spend time in prayer and I would gently share some scriptures with him. BUT I would submit and trust in the Lord to open our marriage to the holy UNION it was intended to be.


In His Joy and Grace,

Kate

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